Israël valt Gaza en Libanon binnen

[djimi]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jozef Ostyn

1. De President die bij herhaling weigerde om bin Laden te laten elimineren, toen daar nog de kans toe was, was Clinton.

2. Dat de voorbereiding van 9/11 pas op 20 januari 2001 zou begonnen zijn gelooft u toch zelf niet?

1. Ja, Clinton. En dat is de enige president die de USA ooit had ?


2. Dat zou mij inderdaad ten zeerste verwonderen, maar dat heb ik toch ook nergens beweerd ?

[labyrinth]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jozef Ostyn

Ik ben er zeker van dat het Israelische leger niets liever zou willen. Terroristische organisaties zoals Hizbollah vermijden een dergelijk open gevecht echter tot elke prijs.

Vindt u het vernietigen van een electriciteitscentrale waarvan ongeveer 1,4 miljoen burgers afhankelijk zijn een daad van moed ? Spreek dan niet over de lafheid van Hizbollah en de moed van Israël........ ze sluiten hun oren en waarschijnlijk ook hun ogen bij het afschieten. Shame on them !

[djimi]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door kingtiger

Iemand die met conspirationisten heult kan niet meer ernstig genomen worden.

Heeft u het hier over Bush sr., Bush jr. en/of u zelf ??

[djimi]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door kingtiger

Grote dommerik.In vietnam hadden de amerikanen militair duidelijk de overhand.

Vandaar dat ze die oorlog gewonnen hebben, zeker ?

[labyrinth]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door kingtiger

Grote dommerik.In vietnam hadden de amerikanen militair duidelijk de overhand.

Het droppen van napalmbommen deden ze dus ook nog voor hun plezier........

[Ke Nan]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jozef Ostyn

De VC hebben geen enkele veldslag tegen de VS gewonnen. De val van Zuid-Viëtnam kwam er pas nadat het reguliere Noord-Vietnamese leger Zuid-Vietnam binnenviel NA het vertrek van de Amerikaanse troepen.

You say potatoe, I say potato. Het vertrek(eerder terugtrekking) van de Amerikaanse troepen wijst erop dat ze de oorlog verloren hebben.
Met de staart tussen de benen kozen ze het hazenpad.

[longhorn]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door djimi

Vandaar dat ze die oorlog gewonnen hebben, zeker ?

Eigenlijk heeft Kingtiger wel gelijk. Militair hadden ze de bovenhand. De poltieke wil ontbrak.

[djimi]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door longhorn

Gelukkig heeft iedereen resolutie 1559 opgevolgd, nietwaar, Edina?

194, 242, 338, 446, 452 èn 478 gaan voor zover ik weet nog altijd allemaal vooraf aan 1559.

[werkgroep morkhoven]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Ke Nan

You say potatoe, I say potato. Het vertrek(eerder terugtrekking) van de Amerikaanse troepen wijst erop dat ze de oorlog verloren hebben.
Met de staart tussen de benen kozen ze het hazenpad.

En het zal ook niet de laatste oorlog zijn die ze verliezen (ten koste van onnoemelijk veel leed en burgerslachtoffers aan de andere zijde).

[longhorn]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door djimi

194, 242, 338, 446, 452 èn 478 gaan voor zover ik weet nog altijd allemaal vooraf aan 1559.

Wat meteen de machteloosheid van de VN en haar resoluties in het bijzonder aan de kaak stelt.

[djimi]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Juventus

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741435.html

Die Gideon Levy kan het alleszins beter uitleggen dan ik zelf.
Hij doet het wellicht zo goed dat nog geen enkele van de vele Israël-fans hier op deze tekst heeft durven reageren.
Om hen te helpen zal ik die tekst hieronder nog eens 'plakken'.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741435.html

Stop now, immediately

By Gideon Levy

This war must be stopped now and immediately. From the start it was unnecessary, even if its excuse was justified, and now is the time to end it. Every day raises its price for no reason, taking a toll in blood that gives Israel nothing tangible in return. This is a good time to stop the war because both sides can claim they won: Israel harmed Hezbollah and Hezbollah harmed Israel. History shows that no situation is better for reaching an arrangement. Remember the lessons of the Yom Kippur War.

Israel went into the campaign on justified grounds and with foul means. It claims it has declared war on Hezbollah but, in practice, it is destroying Lebanon. It has gotten most of what it could have out of this war. The aerial "target bank" has mostly been covered. The air force could continue to sow destruction in the residential neighborhoods and empty offices and could also continue dropping dozens of tons of bombs on real or imagined bunkers and kill innocent Lebanese, but nothing good will come of it.

Those who want to restore Israel's deterrent capabilities have succeeded. Hezbollah and the rest of its enemies know that Israel reacts with enormous force to any provocation. South Lebanon is cleaner now of a Hezbollah presence. In any case, the organization is likely to return there, just as it is likely to rearm. An international agreement could be achieved now, and it won't be possible to achieve a better deal at a reasonable price in the future.

Israel's other goals - returning the captured soldiers and the elimination of Hassan Nasrallah - will anyway be more difficult to achieve even if the war goes on for weeks and months. The IDF is now asking for "two more weeks" and in another two weeks it will ask for "another two weeks." A decisive victory is not in the offing.

On the other hand, the price is skyrocketing. Every day increases international criticism of Israel and hatred of it. That is also an element in "national security." As opposed to the choir in Israel that makes a false presentation as if the world is cheering Israel, the images from Beirut are causing Israel enormous damage, and rightly so. Not only in the streets of the Arab world is more and more hatred being sown, but also in the West. Not only hundreds of thousands of Lebanese but tens of thousands of Westerners fleeing from Lebanon are contributing to the depiction of Israel as a violent, crude and destructive state.

The fact that George Bush and Tony Blair are cheering Israel might be consolation for Ehud Olmert and the media in Israel, but it is not enough to persuade millions of TV viewers who see the images of destruction and devastation, most of which are not shown to Israeli audiences. The world sees entire neighborhoods that have been destroyed, hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing in panic, homeless, and hundreds of civilians dead and wounded including many children who have nothing to do with Hezbollah.

The continuation of the war therefore is neither moral nor worthwhile. The economic blow the war caused to Israel will even remain limited if the war ends now. A lethal summer will exact a much greater economic price.

The Israeli rear, which has so far displayed impressive resilience, will not remain indifferent in the shelters for much longer. Slowly, the cracks will open and citizens will begin to ask why we are dying and what we are killing for. That's just the way of war. At first, nobody asks why, but the more entangled they become, the more difficult the questions become.

We've been here before, more than once. Wars began with broad national approval and ended with a great crisis. Those who bask now in the consensus should know that nothing lasts forever. The war will become an imbroglio. When it becomes apparent that the air force is not enough, the ground invasion that has already begun will intensify. The cliche about the Lebanese quagmire will be revalidated, and when the soldiers are killed, as is already happening daily, in house to house hunting, the protests will rise and divide society.

Now Israel is hoping for the elimination of Nasrallah. That's an atavistic impulse, even if understandable, which seeks the head of the enemy in order to prove our victory over him. There's no wisdom or practicality in it. Once again it is worth reminding ourselves of the dozens of people Israel assassinated in Lebanon and the territories, from Sheikh Abbas Mussawi to Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, each replaced by someone new, usually more talented and dangerous than the predecessor. The goals of the war should not be dictated by dark impulses, even if they come in response to the wishes and demands of the mob. The only advantage that would benefit Israel from the elimination of Nasrallah would be that maybe it would bring about an end to the warring. But it can be halted even without that. The other desired goal, the return of the prisoners, will anyway only be achieved through negotiations to release prisoners. Israel could have done that before the war.

It is still too early to weigh out the balance of achievements and failures of this war. The day will come when it will become clear that it was purposeless, as are all wars of choice. Ceasing it now guarantees a limited achievement at a limited price. Continuing it guarantees a heavy price without any guarantee of a suitable reward. Therefore, Israel must cease and desist. The president of the United States can push us to continue the war all he wants, the prime minister of Britain can cheer us in parliament, but in Israel and Lebanon, the blood is being spilled, the horror is intensifying, the price is rising and it is all for naught.

[labyrinth]

[quote=Jozef Ostyn;1834899]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door labyrinth

Het spijt mij maar u o ontkent feiten. Ik verwijs u naar The Military Balance, het jaarlijkse naslagwerk van het International Institute for Strategic Studies waarin de staande strijdkrachten van de PA netjes opgelijst worden, uiteraard los van de diverse milities van Fatah, PFLP, enz.

Dit zijn de feiten Jozef

Palestinian Authority

Gaza : 25.000
West Bank : 20.000
Total 45.000


Libanon

Grondtroepen : 60.000
Luchtmacht : 1.000
Zeemacht : 400
Totaal 61.400


Israël

Grondtroepen : 521.000
Luchtmacht : 91.000
Zeemacht : 19.500
Totaal 631.500


Spreekt u nog steeds over een moedig en arm Israëlisch slachtoffer ?
Israël bezit in troepen zowat 7 x meer dan Libanon en Gaza en de West Bank together....... en dan spreken we nog niet over hun respectievelijk wapenarsenaal.

[Gun]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jozef Ostyn

Dit zijn de feiten Jozef

Palestinian Authority

Gaza : 25.000
West Bank : 20.000
Total 45.000


Libanon

Grondtroepen : 60.000
Luchtmacht : 1.000
Zeemacht : 400
Totaal 61.400


Israël

Grondtroepen : 521.000
Luchtmacht : 91.000
Zeemacht : 19.500
Totaal 631.500


Spreekt u nog steeds over een moedig en arm Israëlisch slachtoffer ?
Israël bezit in troepen zowat 7 x meer dan Libanon en Gaza en de West Bank together....... en dan spreken we nog niet over hun respectievelijk arsenaal.

Ga eens na wat het verschil in technologie is tussen hun infanteriën ... de druppel vergeleken met een oceaan

[Flippend Rund]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door djimi

Die Gideon Levy kan het alleszins beter uitleggen dan ik zelf.

Idem voor Pat Buchanan, die nochtans een rechts politicus is:

When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force on Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.
First came capitulation on the Bush Doctrine, as Pyongyang and Tehran defied Bush's dictum: The world's worst regimes will not be allowed to acquire the world's worst weapons. Then came suspension of the democracy crusade as Islamic militants exploited free elections to advance to power and office in Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, Iraq and Iran.



Now Israel's rampage against a defenseless Lebanon -- smashing airportrunways, fuel tanks, power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges, roads and the occasional refugee convoy -- has exposed Bush's folly in subcontracting U.S. policy out to Tel Aviv, thus making Israel the custodian of our reputation and interests in the Middle East.
The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush's blessing, is smashing up has a pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his democracy crusade. Yet, asked in St. Petersburg if he would urge Israel to use restraint in its air strikes, Bush sounded less like the leader of the Free World than some bellicose city councilman from Brooklyn Heights.
What Israel is up to was described by its Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz when he threatened to "turn back the clock in Lebanon 20 years."
Olmert seized upon Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers to unleash the IDF in a pre-planned attack to make the Lebanese people suffer until the Lebanese government disarms Hezbollah, a task the Israeli army could not accomplish in 18 years of occupation.
Israel is doing the same to the Palestinians. To punish these people for the crime of electing Hamas, Olmert imposed an economic blockade of Gaza and the West Bank and withheld the $50 million in monthly tax and customs receipts due the Palestinians.
Then, Israel instructed the United States to terminate all aid to the Palestinian Authority, though Bush himself had called for the elections and for the participation of Hamas. Our Crawford cowboy meekly complied.
The predictable result: Fatah and Hamas fell to fratricidal fighting, and Hamas militants began launching Qassam rockets over the fence from Gaza into Israel. Hamas then tunneled into Israel, killed two soldiers, captured one, took him back into Gaza, and demanded a prisoner exchange.
Israel's response was to abduct half of the Palestinian cabinet and parliament and blow up a $50 million U.S.-insured power plant. That cut off electricity for half a million Palestinians. Their food spoiled, their water could not be purified, and their families sweltered in the summer heat of the Gaza desert. One family of seven was wiped out on a beach by what the IDF assures us was an errant artillery shell.
Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy land from which attacks are mounted on her people.
But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.
But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to Lebanese Christians and Muslims?
When al Qaeda captured two U.S. soldiers and barbarically butchered them, the U.S. Army did not smash power plants across the Sunni Triangle. Why then is Bush not only silent but openly supportive when Israelis do this?
Democrats attack Bush for crimes of which he is not guilty, including Haditha and Abu Ghraib. Why are they, too, silent when Israel pursues a conscious policy of collective punishment of innocent peoples?
Britain's diplomatic goal in two world wars was to bring the naive cousins in, to "pull their chestnuts out of the fire." Israel and her paid and pro-bono agents here appear determined to expand the Iraq war into Syria and Iran, and have America fight and finish all of Israel's enemies.
That Tel Aviv is maneuvering us to fight its wars is understandable. That Americans are ignorant of, or complicit in this, is deplorable.
Already, Bush is ranting about Syria being behind the Hezbollah capture of the Israeli soldiers. But where is the proof?
Who is whispering in his ear? The same people who told him Iraq was maybe months away from an atom bomb, that an invasion would be a "cakewalk," that he would be Churchill, that U.S. troops would be greeted with candy and flowers, that democracy would break out across the region, that Palestinians and Israelis would then sit down and make peace?
How much must America pay for the education of this man?

[labyrinth]

[quote=2004gun;1835751]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door labyrinth

Ga eens na wat het verschil in technologie is tussen hun infanteriën ... de druppel vergeleken met een oceaan

The Military Balance is inderdaad heel leerrijk.

[Gun]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Flippend Rund

Idem voor Pat Buchanan, die nochtans een rechts politicus is:

maar begrijpbaar want Pat is wel een gekend anti-zionist ...

[Gun]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door 2004gun

The Military Balance is inderdaad heel leerrijk.

Er loopt iets verkeerd bij uw citaten

[Gun]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door kingtiger

Iemand die met conspirationisten heult kan niet meer ernstig genomen worden.

In plaats van zo hoog van de toren te kraaien en wild om uw heen te schreeuwen zou U beter stilletjes en bescheiden op onderzoek gaan naar de basis van uw extreme standpunten want U hebt het, gelukkig voor de mensheid, nooit* bij het rechte eind.

*Behalve uw uitmundende wapen-technologie-kennis natuurlijk.

[labyrinth]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door 2004gun

Er loopt iets verkeerd bij uw citaten

O.K. 6 x
En wat nog ?

[Gun]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door labyrinth

O.K. 6 x
En wat nog ?

Yes yes ne keer of 6?