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Olenivka POW massacre
Eind vorige week was er een aanval op een gevangenkamp in Olenivka. Meer dan 50 Oekraïense gevangen zijn omgekomen: https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...6b944baae82a61
De beschuldigingen gaan over en weer: Oekraïene heeft het zelf gedaan met HIMARS vs. Rusland met thermobaric. Dit draadje voor wie het mee wilt uitpluizen obv beschikbare gegevens. Wat denken jullie obv de actueel beschikbare info? |
Deze threads wijzen in de richting van Russische verantwoordelijkheid:
https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1553346547739410432 https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/st...75389472882689 https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/sta...03647569596418 Vooral het argument van de brandschade en het ontbreken van een impactkrater, lijken meer te wijzen op een thermobarisch wapen (en dus Russisch of DPR) dan HIMARS (geclaimd door Rusland). Er is ook Russisch bewijs van HIMARS dat de lakmoesproef niet overleeft (nice find @Koppijn): Citaat:
Ik antwoord de poll dus met "vermoedelijke Rusland", maar let's see welk bewijs er nog gevonden kan worden. |
Wat zegt de VS er over? Kirby zegt het niet te weten waar de verantwoordelijkheid ligt volgens wat ik lees.
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Dagelijks zijn er zoveel dingen....
Vandaag... War crimes Ukraine risks nuclear accident and prohibits IAEA inspection of nuclear power plant The Ukrainian army repeatedly attacks the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant and refuses to allow the IAEA to inspect it. In the German media, most of this is concealed or misrepresented by omitting important information. The Ukrainian army repeatedly attacks the nuclear power plant near Zaporizhzhya, which is under Russian control, with combat drones. This is not denied; Kiev also confirmed the use of kamikaze drones on 22 July. However, Kiev claims that it used the drones against military targets near the power plant, while Russia reports in words and pictures that the kamikaze drones were fired at the power plant site. The nuclear power plant near Zaporizhzhya is the largest nuclear power plant in Europe, one does not even want to imagine what would happen if Kiev damaged important equipment at the nuclear power plant. However, Kiev is deliberately taking this risk. The nuclear power plant is critical for another reason, because it was built by the Soviet Union, or Russia. Later, however, Ukraine did not equip it with Russian fuel rods; instead, Ukraine ordered fuel rods from the US company Westinghouse, which have different dimensions than the intended Russian fuel rods. In contrast to the German media, this was reported in detail in Russia and the dangers of the Ukrainian nuclear experiment were pointed out. Who is preventing inspections of the nuclear power plant? German media have been reporting frequently lately that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) is concerned about the safety of the nuclear power plant, but is not allowed to go on inspection trips to the plant. The German media portray it as if Russia were preventing the inspections and as if it was Russia that was endangering the safety of the power plant. This is nonsense, because Russia built this type of power plant and knows it very well. In fact, it is the other way round, because it is Ukraine that prohibits the inspections of the nuclear power plant. The reason: formally, the nuclear power plant is located on Ukrainian territory, which is why the IAEA is not allowed to go to the power plant against Kiev's will. And Kiev forbids the inspections on the grounds that it does not control the area and therefore cannot guarantee the safety of the IAEA experts. Russia, on the other hand, explicitly invites the experts because Russia demands an independent inspection of the nuclear power plant due to the improper fuel rods and other incidents. However, Russia cannot guarantee the safety of the experts at the moment, even if they wanted to travel to the nuclear power plant against Kiev's will, because Kiev is bombarding the nuclear power plant with drones to make matters worse. The Russian news agency TASS has reported on this with further details Zaporizhzhya: Official Kiev prevents IAEA inspection visit to Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant The member of the General Council of the Military and Civil Administration of the Zaporizhzhya region, Vladimir Rogov, has said that the Ukrainian armed forces are posing a direct threat to the IAEA staff by shelling the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant. The inspection visit of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant in Energodar is only being obstructed by the government in Kiev, said Vladimir Rogov, a member of the General Council of the Military and Civil Administration of the Zaporizhzhya region. "In fact, the IAEA is already largely ready to send an inspection, its representatives, but cannot do so because the Selensky regime forbids it. It even prohibits them from coming to the Selensky-controlled area, let alone Energodar. We are waiting for the IAEA to clarify what kind of experiments were conducted in Zaporizhzhya and to give its expert opinion. This is all the more true because it is easy to tell who did what when and where it came from by the origin of radioactive elements," he said on the sidelines of the VIII meeting of the members of the Gorchakov Club. Rogov had earlier said that Ukrainian forces posed a direct threat to IAEA staff by shelling the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant, preventing their visit to the site. On Saturday evening, Ukrainian forces carried out a drone strike on a humanitarian convoy delivering relief supplies to Energodar. The humanitarian mission's vehicles were destroyed and three residential buildings, a grocery shop, a hotel building and a dormitory on the NPP site were damaged. On Thursday evening, Ukrainian forces carried out a drone strike on a settlement in Energodar where employees of the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant live, causing no casualties and damaging one residential building. On 20 July, three Ukrainian kamikaze drones struck the site of the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant. The reactor part of the Zaporizhzhya NPP was not damaged and the background radiation was normal. The attacks on the Zaporizhzhya nuclear power plant wounded 11 staff members, four of whom are in serious condition. IAEA Director General Rafael Grossi told a meeting of the Board of Governors on 6 June that the agency was working to create the conditions for sending an expert mission to the Zaporizhzhya plant. Ukraine's Energoatom rejected the IAEA experts' visit to Zaporizhzhya, pointing out that it had not invited Grossi to the NPP and had already denied him such a visit. The Zaporizhzhya NPP is the largest nuclear power plant in Europe, it generates a quarter of the total electrical energy in Ukraine, its capacity is about 6,000 megawatts, it consists of six units. Since 1996, Zaporizhzhya NPP has been an independent division of the national nuclear power generation company Energoatom, which is controlled by Ukraine. In March 2022, the plant was captured by Russian forces. The NPP is currently operating at 70 per cent of its capacity, as the liberated Zaporizhzhya region has a surplus of produced electricity to be delivered to Crimea in the future. https://www.anti-spiegel.ru/2022/ukraine… Nucleair accidentje in de schoenen van Rusland steken? Dat zal er ook nog wel bij kunnen zeker. Gegarandeerd zal het bewijs van schuld op Osint te vinden zijn zeker? |
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Kijk gewoon naar het bewijs dat je kan vinden? |
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In Russisch verhaal over bommen op detentiekamp zitten veel gaten
SSU interception confirms: shelling of Olenivka prison was carried out by occupiers ntercepted conversations confirm that the ruscists emplaced their Grad MRLS near the correctional facility and began firing into the Ukraine-controlled territory. However, no shelling in response was observed - this is confirmed by the ‘DNR’ fighters themselves. Blijkbaar hoopte ze dat er terug geschoten zou worden en ze dan dat kamp konden opblazen en zo de schuld afschuiven op de Oekrainers. Die strategie is blijkbaar niet gelukt. |
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Geen impact krater (verwacht bij himars) Verkoolde lijken (consistent met thermobaric, niet met himars) Geen collateral damage aan andere gebouwen (verwacht bij himars, want krachtig) Bon, over de claim van Rusland dat het Himars zou zijn; hier staat dus haarfijn uitgelegd hoe het bewijs dat Rusland aanvoerde onzin is, omdat het beeldmateriaal is van een eerdere aanval: https://twitter.com/redintelpanda/st...rZbGBqcGcHQV-w Ik ga niet alles overtypen, lees het gewoon. Wie maakte deze tegenclaim? Ria.ru: Russische staatsmedia, dus niet zomaar een bloggertje of zo. Kijk ook eens naar de andere bewijzen en, beter nog, breng zelf wat bewijzen aan |
Het verhaal van de russen ivm die aanslag op POW's rammelt langs alle kanten...
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Satelietfoto's voor & achter de aanval : https://maxar.mediavalet.com/galleri...d-ExternalUser |
De Russen hebben er een handje van weg om een zware en smerige misdaad gedurende vele jaren te verzwijgen. Een typisch geval was hetgeen ze uitspookten toen ze in september 1939 Oost-Polen onder de voet liepen. Door een geheim addendum toegevoegd aan het niet-aanvalspact (het beruchte Molotov-Von Ribbentrop pact) ze gesloten hadden met Nazi-Duitsland kregen ze Oost-Polen cadeau. In dat gedeelte van Polen had een groot gedeelte van het Poolse leger zich teruggetrokken, gewoon omdat ze militair-technisch niet konden opboksen tegen de Nazi-troepenmacht. De Russki’s namen prompt zowat 22 000 Poolse officieren gevangen en depoteerden ze naar twee plaatsen in Westelijk Rusland. Daar werden ze simpelweg met een schot in het hoofd geliquideerd. Deze genocide werd pas formeel toegeven na de val van de Sovjet-Unie in 1991.
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Eva Bartlett is ter plaatse gaan kijken. Ze schrijft:
""It was extremely difficult to witness the charred and twisted remains of Ukrainian POWs in the Yelenovka detention center at first hand. The stench of death was overwhelming. Bodies remained in the ruins and melted into the metal bunk beds they were on at the time of the bombing. Other corpses, presumably killed by shrapnel instead of burning to death, lay outside. A soldier was inspecting them, presumably in order to determine the exact cause, and the victims’ identities. Even if the Ukrainian side killed its own soldiers, it was the Russians who took care to identify the remains. ... Who benefits from the war crime at Yelenovka? Ukraine and Western media, as would be expected, blame Russia for the bombing of Yelenovka detention center, which killed 53 people. Russia and the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR), in turn, point the finger at Kiev. In addition to those killed, the 2am bombing, which DPR officials say was carried out using American-supplied HIMARS, injured at least eight employees and over 70 POWs held there. The prisoners were captured Ukrainian combatants, mainly members of the Azov neo-Nazi militia who’d surrendered in Mariupol in May. If HIMARS, or High-Mobility Artillery Rocket System, were indeed the source of the destruction and death, then it is almost certain it was Ukraine who bombed the prison, given that Kiev had the coordinates and is the only side in the conflict that possesses such weapons. Even the Pentagon admits it is possible, albeit characterizing the strike as “unintentional.” From a logical perspective, Russia had no motivation to bomb the prison. For Ukraine, on the other hand, these POWs represented a liability, in that they could testify to the alleged war crimes they committed against Donbass civilians. Ukraine has made a litany of claims meant to incriminate Russia throughout the current conflict –the Bucha massacre, the strike on the Mariupol maternity hospital, the Ghost of Kiev hoax, the supposed mass graves of civilians, the outlandish false allegations of Russian soldiers committing sexual crimes, which even saw the former Ukrainian Parliamentary Commissioner for Human Rights fired by Kiev’s own parliament. Russia has invited the UN and the International Red Cross to investigate the Yelenovka prison bombing. Meanwhile, observers online have used the publicly available data to put together a picture of what occurred. Here’s an insightful analysis from the Rybar Telegram channel (with more than 627,000 followers), specializing in military analytics: “The eastern part of the building suffered the most damage, where a powerful fire and explosion occurred, which blew out the windows.” Judging by the angle of impact, the analyst concludes that “the shooting was carried out from the trajectory of Marinka-Kurakhovo –the Sergeevka triangle– Pokrovsk-Udachnoe.” This is Ukrainian-controlled territory. The analysis could not conclude whether HIMARS was used, from the information at hand. Along the ‘who benefits?’ line of thinking, a number of circumstances also point to Kiev. These have also been pointed out by Russian observers and compiled into a chronology. The captured Azov Nazis were taken to the Yelenovka detention center in late May. While prisoner exchanges between Ukraine and Russia have included Azov fighters, there is a strong opposition to handing them back over to Kiev, meaning that there’s no guarantee that they would be exchanged in the future – potentially making them a liability to Kiev. By June 20 reports of Ukraine shelling the prison already appeared on Russian channels watching the conflict. On July 28 the confession of an Azov member emerged, claiming that neo-Nazis in Kharkov and Kiev had direct orders from Zelensky’s office to torture and murder Russian prisoners of war. Late that night/early next morning, Ukraine struck the very detention center holding the Azov member who confessed, as well as others who might have done so. Elsewhere, other neo-Nazis in captivity have confessed to deliberately murdering civilians, a PR disaster for Ukraine, made worse were the prisoners in Yelenovka to follow suit. Last but not least, just two days before the Yelenovka strike, the US Senate passed a resolution urging the State Department to recognize Russia as a “sponsor of terrorism.” By perpetrating an attack and blaming it on Moscow, Kiev could be aiming to push that decision through – even though the State Department is reportedly reluctant. Given Ukraine’s multiple attempts to incriminate Russia, and eight years of bombing Donbass civilians, killing their own soldiers is not too far-fetched. In fact, surrendered Ukrainian soldiers have claimed their commanders threatened to shoot them if they attempted desertion, and indeed Ukrainian nationalists firing on them when they attempted to surrender, in one case killing or wounding dozens . It is left to Russian and DPR doctors to preserve the lives of Ukrainian POWs – even those apparently injured by friendly fire. Outside a Donetsk hospital after the Yelenovka bombing, one of the doctors working on wounded Ukrainians said that five had already had successful surgery for their shrapnel wounds, and two more were to undergo operations. “It doesn’t matter which side you’re on, we will help you,” he said. The ghastly scenes of charred flesh and shrapnel-studded bodies I saw at the prison will remain etched in my mind for a long time. Yes, war is ugly, but Ukraine is upping the ante when it comes to both war crimes and hypocrisy." https://www.rt.com/russia/559996-kiev-uk…" |
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Die is dus ter plaatsen (mogen?) gaan kijken, terwijl het Rode Kruis er nog altijd niet naartoe is mogen gaan?... Is Eva echt on site geweest? In eigen persoon?... |
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Opnieuw, dit conflicteert met de boodschappen van het Rode Kruis zelf, namelijk dat ze ondanks verzoeken geen toestemming krijgen om ter plaatse te gaan. Iemand moet dus liegen, ofwel de Russen, ofwel het Rode Kruis. Of er is sprake van een "misverstand"?... |
Intussen beweert ook ISW dat het geen HIMARS was en vermoeden ze Russische verantwoordelijkheid, op gezag van bronnen binnen het Amerikaans leger. Substantieel geen toevoeging aan eerdere bewijsvoering, dus maakt niet zo veel uit m.i.
" ISW assesses that Russian forces were responsible for the killing of 53 Ukrainian POWs in an explosion at a Russian-controlled prison in Olenivka, Donetsk Oblast on July 28. Two US officials anonymously confirmed to Politico on August 1 that no traces of US-provided High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS), Ukraine’s most precise artillery system, were found at the prison site.[4] The Kremlin alleges that Ukraine fired HIMARS and precision-guided rockets to kill Ukrainian POWs and deter Ukrainian defectors. Satellite and other imagery from the site indicate that the attack only damaged one building, did not collapse the walls of that building, and did not leave any shell craters in the vicinity, very strongly suggesting that the destruction of the prison was the result of either a precision strike or an internally planted incendiary or explosive.[5] One US official told Politico that “the evidence showed the attack was not conducted by Kyiv.” If Ukraine had used something other than HIMARS to conduct the strike, the attack would almost certainly have left collateral damage around the facility, including craters and other damaged buildings. Given the US assessment that HIMARS were not used in the attack, ISW assesses that Russia was responsible for this attack on Ukrainian POWs in violation of the Geneva Conventions. " https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...sment-august-1 |
Wat de aanval op dat detentiecentrum betreft:
https://t.me/rocknrollgeopolitics/4294 "CONFIRMED. |
Bij verdere confirmatie: een oorlogsmisdaad op bevel van de NAVO.
De bron die dit meldt beschikt doorgaans over uitstekende inlichtingen. |
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Voorstel: zullen we de loutere gezagsargumenten laten voor wat ze zijn en naar de bewijsvoering zelf kijken? Allez, het enige wat jouw bron geeft is een claim, zonder bewijs. Dat stelt toch niet veel voor? ISW geeft een paar argumenten tegen HIMARS-aanval (zie hoger), in lijn met enkele OSINT-analyses. Allemaal niet conclusive maar toch iets sterker qua bewijs |
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Een ding is toestemming en een ander is hoe lang men wacht om eventueel bekend te maken dat er toestemming verkregen is, hoe lang de pers wacht dit nieuws te delen, hoe lang het duurt vooraleer het tot de lezer is doorgedrongen. En nog een ander is handelen nadat de toestemming verkregen is. Om maar te zeggen dat er nog andere verklaringen zijn dan de conspiracy die propagandisten zouden kunnen lanceren....zoals insinueren dat het rode kruis geen toestemming krijgt omdat Rusland iets te verbergen heeft (de te verwachten piste). Dat terwijl het niet het westen is dat een onderzoek vraagt maar Rusland. Ik voorspel. Het westen zal een VN onderzoek tegen houden met een of ander smoesje. Ondertussen de (sociale) media overstelpen met allerlei fake info. Vrij absurd echter om te beweren dat Rusland een deel van de POW's zou willen vermoorden. En ten koste van de eigen manschappen. Dat terwijl ze zoveel moeite deden die gasten levend uit Azovstal te halen. Ze hadden ze even goed daar kunnen bombarderen of simpel weg naar Rusland kunnen sturen om ze te verdwijnen moest dat de bedoeling zijn. Maar wat Rusland wil is een proces en getuigen verslagen. En dat wordt moeijkler als die gasten dood zijn. Ik schat dat daar een paar belangrijke comandanten tussen zaten. Hopelijk hebben ze het overleefd. De vraag die ik me eerder zou stellen is of Zelensky hiervan op de hoogte was. Wat niet gezegd is. |
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