Politics.be - Los bericht bekijken - Armeense 'genocide' is grootste leugen van 20e eeuw

Samuray · 30 juni 2006, 14:46

Hier is antwoord van Lewy op Dadrian
(te vinden op http://www.meforum.org/article/895):
Guenter Lewy responds:
Mr. Kirlikovali is correct that the tribulations of Turkish refugees from the Balkan wars and other armed conflicts of the pre-World War I era have not received the attention and condemnation they deserve. The West has been preoccupied with the horrors of the Armenian story, and the suffering of Turks has often been ignored. The same holds true for the wartime famines that took a heavy toll of life among both Turks and Armenians. This double standard in recognizing human misery must be repudiated for the sake of historical truth and to help descendants of these victims live with their pain.
In response to Mr. Tavitian: yes, a large number of Western students of Ottoman history reject the appropriateness of the genocide label for the tragic fate of the Armenian community in Ottoman Turkey. This list includes distinguished scholars such as Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Bernard Lewis, and Andrew Mango. Ignoring this formidable array of learned opinion, most Armenians and their supporters among so-called genocide scholars assert with superb arrogance that the Armenian genocide is an incontrovertible historical fact, similar to the Jewish Holocaust, which would be denied only by lackeys of the Turkish government. One pro-Armenian author, Henry C. Theriault, has even suggested that denial of the Armenian genocide represents hate speech and, therefore, should be illegal in the United States.
In a short article, it is impossible to put forth all of the evidence that contradicts the notion of a premeditated plan of annihilation. I do so in my book on the Armenian massacres,[9] on which my essay is based. The reports of American, German, and Austrian consular officials as well as the accounts of Western missionaries, who were on the spot in Anatolia, confirm the occurrence of large-scale killings but do not implicate the "Special Organization" or any other agency of the central government. Mr. Tavitian's allegation of "a systematic and deliberate elimination of the Armenian population" is further undercut by the exemption of the large Armenian communities of Istanbul, Izmir, and Aleppo from deportation. These exemptions are analogous to Hitler exempting the Jews of Berlin, Frankfurt, and Cologne from the final solution.
I welcome Mr. Dadrian's close reading of my article, which indeed caught a few minor factual errors. However, regarding the points of substance, Dadrian again displays his skill in the use of selective evidence. For example, the alleged thirty-one telegrams of Talât Pasha contained in the Naim-Andonian volume, some of which order the killing of all Armenians, are rejected as crude forgeries not only by Turkish historians but also by almost all Western students of Ottoman history. Hilmar Kaiser, cited by Dadrian and the one exception to this rule, did say documents from the Ottoman Ministry of the Interior "confirm to some degree" two telegrams, but he concluded that "further research on the ‘Naim-Andonian' documents is necessary."
If Dadrian wants to consider the verdict of the Turkish courts-martial as proof of the guilt of the Young Turk regime in the premeditated murder of Ottoman Armenians, he is, of course, free to do so. However, his readers should know that the evidence relied upon by the military tribunals—"confessions, witness and expert testimony, official records, discovery, judicial notice, searches and seizure"—is of doubtful reliability. Among other shortfalls in due process, it was never subject to cross-examination. More importantly, this evidence does not actually exist. Wherever the blame for this situation is to be placed, the fact is that all of the original documentation of the trials is lost, and we have nothing but copies of some documents in the gazette of the Ottoman government and the press. It is doubtful that the Nuremberg trials would ever have attained their significance in documenting Nazi crimes had only unauthenticated copies of documents existed.
I know of no authentic sources that prove Stange's service as a commander of a Special Organization unit engaged in the massacre of Armenians. It is in Dadrian's gloss and not in the original documents that Stange confirms the transfer of brigands employed in guerilla war to mass murder duties, and it is Dadrian, not Stange, who equates the "scum" involved in massacre with released convicts and enrolls them into the ranks of the Special Organization. Similarly, the leading Special Organization official, Eşref Kuşçubasi, after his capture indeed bragged about his exploits in secret operations, but it is only through the shrewd juxtaposition of words taken from different parts of the book in question and Dadrian's insertions that this account becomes an acknowledgment of involvement with the Armenian deportations.
Hilmar Kaiser, on whom Dadrian relies for his defense, has drawn attention to "misleading quotations" and the "selective use of sources" in Dadrian's work, and he has concluded that "serious scholars should be cautioned against accepting all of Dadrian's statements at face value."[10] I concur in this judgment.

Je ziet het:
Zelfs een naaste vriend (onderhand zal Dadrian hem niet meer willen zien) als Hilma Kaisar waarschuwt anderen voor deze manipulator Dadrian.
Hier is voor geïnteresseerden een analyse in www.Tallarmeniantale.com van Dadrians reactie op Lewy:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/dadrian-lewy.htm

Daarin wordt Dadrian nog op vele misleidingen betrapt.
Bv Lewy schrijft dat Britse officials de processen van 1919 afkeurden (ze waren immers “travesty of justice”-processen). Datum van deze bronnen die Lewy overlegt zijn 1 augustus en 21 september 1919.
Dadrian antwoordt hierop met dat zij in deze processen geen vertrouwen hadden omdat ze de vervolging van de daders door deze Britse officials als niet streng genoeg zouden hebben beschouwd (Dadrian meldt ook: ten koste van de Armenen, en daarom hadden ze het over een farce aldus Dadrian).
De datum van deze bron van Dadrian: 9 en 20 januari 1919 waarin deze Britse officials dit geschreven zouden hebben.
Maar wat schrijft Lewy in zijn artikel: de eerste processen werden pas 5 februari 1919 gevoerd.
De processen waren dus niet eens begonnen. Dadrian rommelt weer met zijn bronnen.

30 juni 2006, 14:46	#169
Samuray Schepen Geregistreerd: 5 juni 2006 Berichten: 489	Hier is antwoord van Lewy op Dadrian (te vinden op http://www.meforum.org/article/895): Guenter Lewy responds: Mr. Kirlikovali is correct that the tribulations of Turkish refugees from the Balkan wars and other armed conflicts of the pre-World War I era have not received the attention and condemnation they deserve. The West has been preoccupied with the horrors of the Armenian story, and the suffering of Turks has often been ignored. The same holds true for the wartime famines that took a heavy toll of life among both Turks and Armenians. This double standard in recognizing human misery must be repudiated for the sake of historical truth and to help descendants of these victims live with their pain. In response to Mr. Tavitian: yes, a large number of Western students of Ottoman history reject the appropriateness of the genocide label for the tragic fate of the Armenian community in Ottoman Turkey. This list includes distinguished scholars such as Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Bernard Lewis, and Andrew Mango. Ignoring this formidable array of learned opinion, most Armenians and their supporters among so-called genocide scholars assert with superb arrogance that the Armenian genocide is an incontrovertible historical fact, similar to the Jewish Holocaust, which would be denied only by lackeys of the Turkish government. One pro-Armenian author, Henry C. Theriault, has even suggested that denial of the Armenian genocide represents hate speech and, therefore, should be illegal in the United States. In a short article, it is impossible to put forth all of the evidence that contradicts the notion of a premeditated plan of annihilation. I do so in my book on the Armenian massacres,[9] on which my essay is based. The reports of American, German, and Austrian consular officials as well as the accounts of Western missionaries, who were on the spot in Anatolia, confirm the occurrence of large-scale killings but do not implicate the "Special Organization" or any other agency of the central government. Mr. Tavitian's allegation of "a systematic and deliberate elimination of the Armenian population" is further undercut by the exemption of the large Armenian communities of Istanbul, Izmir, and Aleppo from deportation. These exemptions are analogous to Hitler exempting the Jews of Berlin, Frankfurt, and Cologne from the final solution. I welcome Mr. Dadrian's close reading of my article, which indeed caught a few minor factual errors. However, regarding the points of substance, Dadrian again displays his skill in the use of selective evidence. For example, the alleged thirty-one telegrams of Talât Pasha contained in the Naim-Andonian volume, some of which order the killing of all Armenians, are rejected as crude forgeries not only by Turkish historians but also by almost all Western students of Ottoman history. Hilmar Kaiser, cited by Dadrian and the one exception to this rule, did say documents from the Ottoman Ministry of the Interior "confirm to some degree" two telegrams, but he concluded that "further research on the ‘Naim-Andonian' documents is necessary." If Dadrian wants to consider the verdict of the Turkish courts-martial as proof of the guilt of the Young Turk regime in the premeditated murder of Ottoman Armenians, he is, of course, free to do so. However, his readers should know that the evidence relied upon by the military tribunals—"confessions, witness and expert testimony, official records, discovery, judicial notice, searches and seizure"—is of doubtful reliability. Among other shortfalls in due process, it was never subject to cross-examination. More importantly, this evidence does not actually exist. Wherever the blame for this situation is to be placed, the fact is that all of the original documentation of the trials is lost, and we have nothing but copies of some documents in the gazette of the Ottoman government and the press. It is doubtful that the Nuremberg trials would ever have attained their significance in documenting Nazi crimes had only unauthenticated copies of documents existed. I know of no authentic sources that prove Stange's service as a commander of a Special Organization unit engaged in the massacre of Armenians. It is in Dadrian's gloss and not in the original documents that Stange confirms the transfer of brigands employed in guerilla war to mass murder duties, and it is Dadrian, not Stange, who equates the "scum" involved in massacre with released convicts and enrolls them into the ranks of the Special Organization. Similarly, the leading Special Organization official, Eşref Kuşçubasi, after his capture indeed bragged about his exploits in secret operations, but it is only through the shrewd juxtaposition of words taken from different parts of the book in question and Dadrian's insertions that this account becomes an acknowledgment of involvement with the Armenian deportations. Hilmar Kaiser, on whom Dadrian relies for his defense, has drawn attention to "misleading quotations" and the "selective use of sources" in Dadrian's work, and he has concluded that "serious scholars should be cautioned against accepting all of Dadrian's statements at face value."[10] I concur in this judgment. Je ziet het: Zelfs een naaste vriend (onderhand zal Dadrian hem niet meer willen zien) als Hilma Kaisar waarschuwt anderen voor deze manipulator Dadrian. Hier is voor geïnteresseerden een analyse in www.Tallarmeniantale.com van Dadrians reactie op Lewy: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/dadrian-lewy.htm Daarin wordt Dadrian nog op vele misleidingen betrapt. Bv Lewy schrijft dat Britse officials de processen van 1919 afkeurden (ze waren immers “travesty of justice”-processen). Datum van deze bronnen die Lewy overlegt zijn 1 augustus en 21 september 1919. Dadrian antwoordt hierop met dat zij in deze processen geen vertrouwen hadden omdat ze de vervolging van de daders door deze Britse officials als niet streng genoeg zouden hebben beschouwd (Dadrian meldt ook: ten koste van de Armenen, en daarom hadden ze het over een farce aldus Dadrian). De datum van deze bron van Dadrian: 9 en 20 januari 1919 waarin deze Britse officials dit geschreven zouden hebben. Maar wat schrijft Lewy in zijn artikel: de eerste processen werden pas 5 februari 1919 gevoerd. De processen waren dus niet eens begonnen. Dadrian rommelt weer met zijn bronnen.