[Micele]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door maddox

Niks leugen. Ik weet wat ik moet betalen voor 85 Kwu aan LiPo accu.

1.Wat jij betaald is niet wat Tesla betaald.

2. Voila al rap in de val gelopen, want je leest geen nieuwe links, ttz je blijft niet up-to-date.
Tesla Model S of Roadster heeft geen LiFePO4 accu´s, mss dat die ooit getest werden in de Roadsters (kleiner accupack 56 kWh#) maar dat is ook al minstens 7-8 jaar geleden.
#

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_R...Battery_system
The ESS contains 6,831 lithium ion cells arranged into 11 "sheets" connected in series; each sheet contains 9 "bricks" connected in series; each "brick" contains 69 cells connected in parallel (11S 9S 69P). The cells are of the 18650 form-factor commonly found in laptop batteries. Sources disagree on the exact type of Li-Ion cells—GreenCar says lithium cobalt oxide (LiCo),[112] while researchers at DTU/INESC Porto state lithium manganese oxide (LMO).[113] LiCo has higher reaction energy during thermal runaway than LMO.[114]

Kies maar, maar het zijn geen LiFePO´s

Nu Model S:
sommige links spreken ook van > 8000 stuks andere van > 7000 stuks voor de Tesla S maar dan zal het vermogen per cel tov de grootte een rol spelen, ook safety (afstand tussen cellen, koeling enz...)
(neem ik pakweg 3,1A-3,7V kom ik op bvb op ~ 7400 cellen voor 85 kWh)

Wat Tesla betaald voor zijn packs, dat weet ik niet, en ook niet hoeveel winst of verlies ze willen maken per ingewisseld pack.

1. Inderdaad, zoals ik weet jij ook niets of niet veel. Daarbij inwisselen voor een zeker vast bedrag doen ze quasi pas na garantie dat is dus vroegstens Model S = 2012 + 8 jaar = 2020. Daarbij zal de oude accu ofwel nog gebruikt worden (tussenopslag), ofwel gerecycleerd wat ook nog een serieus bedrag kan opleveren naargelang toestand.

Tesla heeft ook geen glazen bol hoe de metaalprijzen op de markt verlopen (Lithium- Cobalt - Nikkel - andere ? enz...) en weet ook niet wat voor accu´s ze dan de klanten gaan aanbieden voor welk geld, hopelijk kan de klant kiezen naargelang kwaliteit voor welke prijs. 12.000 $ voor 85 kWh zoals te lezen valt voor 2020 lijkt me zeer realistisch of niet ? Zal wslk een afspraak zijn met Panasonic toch voor de roadsters die gans andere garantiejaren hebben 3 + 4 optional sinds 2008. Tesla heeft maar een vaste verbintenis met Panasonic tot 2017. Alles staat te lezen moest je het lezen.

2. Ik volg tenminste de links en weet dat Tesla "zéér wslk" geoptimaliseerde Li ->Nikkel-Cobalt-Aluminium cellen gebruikt (precieze legeringsformule % x % y = groot vraagteken en wslk geheim en sowieso evoluerend door feedback Tesla<>Panasonic)

Currently, the Model S pack comprises up to around 7,000 Panasonic NCR18650A 3100 mAh 18650-size cells using a Lithium nickel cobalt aluminum (NCA) chemistry and proprietary cathode geometry developed by Panasonic and Tesla. The cathode formulation has been specifically optimized for EV applications.
This expanded agreement with Panasonic is important to Tesla as we continue to increase the pace of production. We look forward to strengthening our relationship with Panasonic, and I’m confident that this partnership will continue to be an integral part of Tesla’s success for years to come.
— Tesla Co-Founder and CEO Elon Musk.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...0-tesla-1.html

Die link had ik al een antal dagen geleden gepost en geciteerd, maar je hebt geen tijd ze te lezen, niet ?

Ik citeer nog eens best alles:

Panasonic and Tesla expand supply agreement for Li-ion cells; nearly 2 billion through 2017

30 October 2013

Panasonic Corporation and Tesla Motors have expanded their 2011 supply agreement so that Panasonic will now supply nearly 2 billion automotive-grade lithium-ion battery cells to Tesla through 31 December 2017 at long-term preferential prices. Panasonic also has a position in Tesla, having purchased $30 million of Tesla’s common stock in a private placement transaction that closed in November 2010.

The lithium-ion battery cells purchased from Panasonic will be used to power the Model S as well as Model X, a performance utility vehicle that is scheduled to go into production by the end of 2014.

This agreement builds upon a multi-year collaboration between Panasonic and Tesla to develop next-generation automotive-grade battery cells and accelerate the market expansion of electric vehicles. Panasonic cells have powered more than 130 million customer miles driven in Tesla Roadsters and Model S.

In its quarterly report filed in August 2013 with the SEC, Tesla noted that:

Our business is dependent on the continued supply of battery cells for our vehicles’ battery packs as well as for the battery packs we produce for other automobile manufacturers. While we believe several sources of the battery cells are available for such battery packs, we have fully qualified only a limited number of suppliers for the cells used in such battery packs and have very limited flexibility in changing cell suppliers. Any disruption in the supply of battery cells from such vendors could disrupt production of Model S and of the battery packs we produce for other automobile manufacturers until such time as a different supplier is fully qualified.

—Tesla Quarterly Report (10Q) for quarter ending 30 June 2013
In June 2013, Panasonic announced that shipments of its lithium-ion battery cells for Tesla Motors’ Model S sedan surpassed 100 million units. The battery cell used in the Model S was developed by Panasonic and Tesla together to achieve leading energy density and performance for an 18650-size cylindrical lithium-ion battery cell.

Currently, the Model S pack comprises up to around 7,000 Panasonic NCR18650A 3100 mAh 18650-size cells using a Lithium nickel cobalt aluminum (NCA) chemistry and proprietary cathode geometry developed by Panasonic and Tesla. The cathode formulation has been specifically optimized for EV applications.

This expanded agreement with Panasonic is important to Tesla as we continue to increase the pace of production. We look forward to strengthening our relationship with Panasonic, and I’m confident that this partnership will continue to be an integral part of Tesla’s success for years to come.

— Tesla Co-Founder and CEO Elon Musk.
Panasonic’s cylindrical automotive cell is a customized technology designed specifically for optimizing electric vehicle quality and life.

We are extremely proud to be a strategic partner of Tesla. Panasonic will increase its production capacity of lithium-ion battery cells to supply Tesla’s growing needs as it expands its production of EVs.

—Yoshihiko Yamada, president of the Automotive & Industrial Systems Company, an internal company of Panasonic
Panasonic established the Automotive & Industrial Systems Company earlier this year.

Aja, dit ken je wslk uitleg over de klassieke Li-ions naargelang materiaal en samenstelling en waar best verbeteringen kunnen/moeten gedaan worden:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...of_lithium_ion

zoals je ziet staan de NCA´s er ook bij met specifiek 9 % Cobalt-aandeel in de kathode, zie daarvoor de tabel, ik zet het er even bij.

Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2)

Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide1 LiNiCoAlO2 (9% Co)

The Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide battery, or NCA, is less commonly used in the consumer market; however, high specific energy and power densities, as well as a long life span, get the attention of the automotive industry. Less flattering are safety and cost. Figure 8 demonstrates the strong points against areas for further development.


Figure 8: Snapshot of NCA
High energy and power densities, as well as good life span, make the NCA
a candidate for EV powertrains. High cost and marginal safety are negatives.

Courtesy of BCG research.

- Kosten kan Tesla wslk wel "regelen" met Panasonic (bvb Li en Cobalt wordt voldoende geproduceerd in China)
- Safety zal Tesla wel technisch oplossen

Figure 10 compares the specific energy of lead, nickel- and lithium-based systems. While Li-cobalt is the clear winner by being able to store more capacity than other systems, this only applies to specific energy. In terms of specific power (load characteristics) and thermal stability, Li-manganese and Li-phosphate are superior. As we move towards electric powertrains, safety and cycle life will become more important than capacity.


Figure 10: Typical energy densities of lead, nickel- and lithium-based batteries
Lithium-cobalt enjoys the highest specific energy; however, manganese and phosphate are superior in terms of specific power and thermal stability.
Courtesy of Cadex