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Geschiedenis Van de Romeinen tot 9/11... |
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15 september 2012, 14:24 | #41 |
Europees Commissaris
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15 september 2012, 14:25 | #42 |
Banneling
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In ieder geval is het een feit dat de christenen, toen ze het voor het zeggen kregen, vele heiligdommen van de 'antieke cultussen' hebben vernietigd. Ja zelfs gewoon afgebroken. Diegenen die dit betwist, is niet goed bezig.
Laatst gewijzigd door system : 15 september 2012 om 14:29. |
15 september 2012, 18:45 | #43 |
Secretaris-Generaal VN
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15 september 2012, 19:32 | #44 | |
Banneling
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De feiten van Gibbon staan nog steeds:
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15 september 2012, 19:45 | #45 | ||
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Bekijk die bron eens, wat ook meteen het probleem met Wikipedia aangeeft:"In the early 20th century, biographer Sir Leslie Stephen", iemand die stierf in 1904 en géén historicus was.
Daarenboven: Citaat:
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Laatst gewijzigd door Koenraad Noël : 15 september 2012 om 19:47. |
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15 september 2012, 20:10 | #46 | ||
Banneling
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Zo mogelijk comparatief zodra ik teksten heb. Laatst gewijzigd door eno2 : 15 september 2012 om 20:20. |
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15 september 2012, 20:24 | #47 | |
Banneling
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Hier al een tekstje dat ik zelf opsnorde op wiki specifiek over de uitroeiing van het paganisme
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...r_Theodosius_I Laatst gewijzigd door eno2 : 15 september 2012 om 20:26. |
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15 september 2012, 20:34 | #48 | ||
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Wat betreft Theodosius, die inderdaad extreem ver ging, moet er toch enige nuance gemaakt worden. Vele paganistische tempels zijn gered in de zin dat ze in kerken werden veranderd, zoals in Rome nog het pantheon. De veroveringen door de Moslims heeft aan dit hergebruik een einde gebracht, zij hielden niet zo van het syncretisme waarbij beelden van Zeus en Neptunus geherinterpreteerd werden. |
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15 september 2012, 20:42 | #49 | |
Banneling
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Mijn indruk is dat de omvorming tot kerken een uitzondering was . Griekse tempels lenen zich daar ook niet goed toe. Ze zijn open ruimtes van pilaren. De grootste bibliotheek van de wereld, het Serapium, in Alexandrië, is ook in die tijd volledig verwoest met verlies van alle manuscripten. Laatst gewijzigd door eno2 : 15 september 2012 om 20:57. |
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15 september 2012, 20:57 | #50 | ||||
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Door veroveringen hebben de Moslims klassieken gevonden, die de Byzantijnen gewoon in de archieven lieten liggen. Bepaalde ervan werden vertaald, en zo geraakten ze bij ons. Met het Concilie van Florence leerde men hier terug Grieks, en zo zijn we naar de originele Griekse teksten kunnen gaan. De Byzantijnse geleerden die uitgenodigd werden brachten oude teksten met zich mee, en met de val van Constantinopel versnelde die stroom. Citaat:
Leent zich nog vrij goed voor een kerk, alleen een beetje klein. Het Parthenon bijvoorbeeld is een kerk geworden, als voorbeeld van een Griekse tempel. Het grondplan valt ook nog mee: Citaat:
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15 september 2012, 21:06 | #51 | |
Banneling
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Ik neem hier de versie van Gibbon die een bladzijde voetnoten van bronnen geeft Die is (natuurlijk?) vernietigend. Na de vernietiging van het Bruchium door Ceasar ten tijde van Cleopatra (uitgebrand) werd het Serapium de grote bibliotheek van Alexandrië. Laatst gewijzigd door eno2 : 15 september 2012 om 21:07. |
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15 september 2012, 21:21 | #52 |
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Socrates Scholasticus, wiens leraars gevlucht waren naar Constantinopel toen het Serapeum vernield werd. Eunapius van Sardis, een heiden, spreekt ook over de val van de tempel, maar vermeldt wederom geen bibliotheek.
Dat gezegd zijnde neemt niet weg dat het Serapeum vernield werd, wat te betreuren is, ook betreurd werd door christelijke tijdsgenoten. Die Theophilus die ervoor verantwoordelijk is heeft ook medechristenen laten vermoorden, 10 000 monniken die zijn slachtoffers waren worden nog steeds herdacht in de Byzantijnse liturgie. Geeft Gibbon specifiek een bron die zegt dat het Serapeum nog steeds een bibliotheek is? |
15 september 2012, 23:28 | #53 | |
Banneling
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Eerst een Wikitekst over tempels waar ook Theophilus vermeld wordt.
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16 september 2012, 00:24 | #54 |
Banneling
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Ik geef eerst het hele verhaaltje van Gibbon -zijn voetnoten met bronnen staan ertussen. En daarna geef ik de belangrijke correctie en aanvulling van Oliphant Smeaton, de opsteller en moderne aanvuller van mijn uitgave van The Modern Library
******************* In this wide and various prospect of devastation, the spectator may distinguish the ruins of the temple of Serapis, at Alexandria. ^35 Serapis does not appear to have been one of the native gods, or monsters, who sprung from the fruitful soil of superstitious Egypt. ^36 The first of the Ptolemies had been commanded, by a dream, to import the mysterious stranger from the coast of Pontus, where he had been long adored by the inhabitants of Sinope; but his attributes and his reign were so imperfectly understood, that it became a subject of dispute, whether he represented the bright orb of day, or the gloomy monarch of the subterraneous regions. ^37 The Egyptians, who were obstinately devoted to the religion of their fathers, refused to admit this foreign deity within the walls of their cities. ^38 But the obsequious priests, who were seduced by the liberality of the Ptolemies, submitted, without resistance, to the power of the god of Pontus: an honorable and domestic genealogy was provided; and this fortunate usurper was introduced into the throne and bed of Osiris, ^39 the husband of Isis, and the celestial monarch of Egypt. Alexandria, which claimed his peculiar protection, gloried in the name of the city of Serapis. His temple, ^40 which rivalled the pride and magnificence of the Capitol, was erected on the spacious summit of an artificial mount, raised one hundred steps above the level of the adjacent parts of the city; and the interior cavity was strongly supported by arches, and distributed into vaults and subterraneous apartments. The consecrated buildings were surrounded by a quadrangular portico; the stately halls, and exquisite statues, displayed the triumph of the arts; and the treasures of ancient learning were preserved in the famous Alexandrian library, which had arisen with new splendor from its ashes. ^41 After the edicts of Theodosius had severely prohibited the sacrifices of the Pagans, they were still tolerated in the city and temple of Serapis; and this singular indulgence was imprudently ascribed to the superstitious terrors of the Christians themselves; as if they had feared to abolish those ancient rites, which could alone secure the inundations of the Nile, the harvests of Egypt, and the subsistence of Constantinople. ^42 Footnote: 35: Sophronius composed a recent and separate history, (Jerom, in Script. Eccles. tom. i. p. 303,) which has furnished materials to Socrates, (l. v. c. 16.) Theodoret, (l. v. c. 22,) and Rufinus, (l. ii. c. 22.) Yet the last, who had been at Alexandria before and after the event, may deserve the credit of an original witness.] [Footnote 36: Gerard Vossius (Opera, tom. v. p. 80, and de Idoloaltria, l. i. c. 29) strives to support the strange notion of the Fathers; that the patriarch Joseph was adored in Egypt, as the bull Apis, and the god Serapis. Note: Consult du Dieu Serapis et son Origine, par J D. Guigniaut, (the translator of Creuzer's Symbolique,) Paris, 1828; and in the fifth volume of Bournouf's translation of Tacitus. - M.] [Footnote 37: Origo dei nondum nostris celebrata. Aegyptiorum antistites sic memorant, &c., Tacit. Hist. iv. 83. The Greeks, who had travelled into Egypt, were alike ignorant of this new deity.] [Footnote 38: Macrobius, Saturnal, l. i. c. 7. Such a living fact decisively proves his foreign extraction.] [Footnote 39: At Rome, Isis and Serapis were united in the same temple. The precedency which the queen assumed, may seem to betray her unequal alliance with the stranger of Pontus. But the superiority of the female sex was established in Egypt as a civil and religious institution, (Diodor. Sicul. tom. i. l. i. p. 31, edit. Wesseling,) and the same order is observed in Plutarch's Treatise of Isis and Osiris; whom he identifies with Serapis.] [Footnote 40: Ammianus, (xxii. 16.) The Expositio totius Mundi, (p. 8, in Hudson's Geograph. Minor. tom. iii.,) and Rufinus, (l. ii. c. 22,) celebrate the Serapeum, as one of the wonders of the world.] [Footnote 41: See Memoires de l'Acad. des Inscriptions, tom. ix. p. 397 - 416. The old library of the Ptolemies was totally consumed in Caesar's Alexandrian war. Marc Antony gave the whole collection of Pergamus (200,000 volumes) to Cleopatra, as the foundation of the new library of Alexandria.] [Footnote 42: Libanius (pro Templis, p. 21) indiscreetly provokes his Christian masters by this insulting remark.] **************** At that time ^43 the archiepiscopal throne of Alexandria was filled by Theophilus, ^44 the perpetual enemy of peace and virtue; a bold, bad man, whose hands were alternately polluted with gold and with blood. His pious indignation was excited by the honors of Serapis; and the insults which he offered to an ancient temple of Bacchus, ^* convinced the Pagans that he meditated a more important and dangerous enterprise. In the tumultuous capital of Egypt, the slightest provocation was sufficient to inflame a civil war. The votaries of Serapis, whose strength and numbers were much inferior to those of their antagonists, rose in arms at the instigation of the philosopher Olympius, ^45 who exhorted them to die in the defence of the altars of the gods. These Pagan fanatics fortified themselves in the temple, or rather fortress, of Serapis; repelled the besiegers by daring sallies, and a resolute defence; and, by the inhuman cruelties which they exercised on their Christian prisoners, obtained the last consolation of despair. The efforts of the prudent magistrate were usefully exerted for the establishment of a truce, till the answer of Theodosius should determine the fate of Serapis. The two parties assembled, without arms, in the principal square; and the Imperial rescript was publicly read. But when a sentence of destruction against the idols of Alexandria was pronounced, the Christians set up a shout of joy and exultation, whilst the unfortunate Pagans, whose fury had given way to consternation, retired with hasty and silent steps, and eluded, by their flight or obscurity, the resentment of their enemies. Theophilus proceeded to demolish the temple of Serapis, without any other difficulties, than those which he found in the weight and solidity of the materials: but these obstacles proved so insuperable, that he was obliged to leave the foundations; and to content himself with reducing the edifice itself to a heap of rubbish, a part of which was soon afterwards cleared away, to make room for a church, erected in honor of the Christian martyrs. The valuable library of Alexandria was pillaged or destroyed; and near twenty years afterwards, the appearance of the empty shelves excited the regret and indignation of every spectator, whose mind was not totally darkened by religious prejudice. ^46 The compositions of ancient genius, so many of which have irretrievably perished, might surely have been excepted from the wreck of idolatry, for the amusement and instruction of succeeding ages; and either the zeal or the avarice of the archbishop, ^47 might have been satiated with the rich spoils, which were the reward of his victory. While the images and vases of gold and silver were carefully melted, and those of a less valuable metal were contemptuously broken, and cast into the streets, Theophilus labored to expose the frauds and vices of the ministers of the idols; their dexterity in the management of the loadstone; their secret methods of introducing a human actor into a hollow statue; ^* and their scandalous abuse of the confidence of devout husbands and unsuspecting females. ^48 Charges like these may seem to deserve some degree of credit, as they are not repugnant to the crafty and interested spirit of superstition. But the same spirit is equally prone to the base practice of insulting and calumniating a fallen enemy; and our belief is naturally checked by the reflection, that it is much less difficult to invent a fictitious story, than to support a practical fraud. The colossal statue of Serapis ^49 was involved in the ruin of his temple and religion. A great number of plates of different metals, artificially joined together, composed the majestic figure of the deity, who touched on either side the walls of the sanctuary. The aspect of Serapis, his sitting posture, and the sceptre, which he bore in his left hand, were extremely similar to the ordinary representations of Jupiter.* He was distinguished from Jupiter by the basket, or bushel, which was placed on his head; and by the emblematic monster which he held in his right hand; the head and body of a serpent branching into three tails, which were again terminated by the triple heads of a dog, a lion, and a wolf.* It was confidently affirmed, that if any impious hand should dare to violate the majesty of the god, the heavens and the earth would instantly return to their original chaos.* An intrepid soldier, animated by zeal, and armed with a weighty battle-axe, ascended the ladder; and even the Christian multitude expected, with some anxiety, the event of the combat. ^50 He aimed a vigorous stroke against the cheek of Serapis; the cheek fell to the ground; the thunder was still silent, and both the heavens and the earth continued to preserve their accustomed order and tranquillity.* The victorious soldier repeated his blows: the huge idol was overthrown, and broken in pieces; and the limbs of Serapis were ignominiously dragged through the streets of Alexandria.* His mangled carcass was burnt in the Amphitheatre, amidst the shouts of the populace; and many persons attributed their conversion to this discovery of the impotence of their tutelar deity.* The popular modes of religion, that propose any visible and material objects of worship, have the advantage of adapting and familiarizing themselves to the senses of mankind: but this advantage is counterbalanced by the various and inevitable accidents to which the faith of the idolater is exposed.* It is scarcely possible, that, in every disposition of mind, he should preserve his implicit reverence for the idols, or the relics, which the naked eye, and the profane hand, are unable to distinguish from the most common productions of art or nature; and if, in the hour of danger, their secret and miraculous virtue does not operate for their own preservation, he scorns the vain apologies of his priests, and justly derides the object, and the folly, of his superstitious attachment. ^51 After the fall of Serapis, some hopes were still entertained by the Pagans, that the Nile would refuse his annual supply to the impious masters of Egypt; and the extraordinary delay of the inundation seemed to announce the displeasure of the river-god.* But this delay was soon compensated by the rapid swell of the waters.* They suddenly rose to such an unusual height, as to comfort the discontented party with the pleasing expectation of a deluge; till the peaceful river again subsided to the well-known and fertilizing level of sixteen cubits, or about thirty English feet. ^52* Footnote 43 We may choose between the date of Marcellinus (A.D. 389) or that of Prosper, ( A.D. 391.) Tillemont (Hist. des Emp. tom. v. p. 310, 756) prefers the former, and Pagi the latter.] * [Footnote 44: Tillemont, Mem. Eccles. tom. xi. p. 441 - 500.* The ambiguous situation of Theophilus - a saint, as the friend of Jerom a devil, as the enemy of Chrysostom - produces a sort of impartiality; yet, upon the whole, the balance is justly inclined against him.] * * * [Footnote *: No doubt a temple of Osiris.* St. Martin, iv 398 - M.] * [Footnote 45: Lardner (Heathen Testimonies, vol. iv. p. 411) has alleged beautiful passage from Suidas, or rather from Damascius, which show the devout and virtuous Olympius, not in the light of a warrior, but of a prophet.] * * * [Footnote 46: Nos vidimus armaria librorum, quibus direptis, exinanita ea a nostris hominibus, nostris temporibus memorant.* Orosius, l. vi. c. 15, p. 421, edit. Havercamp.* Though a bigot, and a controversial writer.* Orosius seems to blush.] * * * [Footnote 47: Eunapius, in the Lives of Antoninus and Aedesius, execrates the sacrilegious rapine of Theophilus.* Tillemont (Mem. Eccles. tom. xiii. p. 453) quotes an epistle of Isidore of Pelusium, which reproaches the primate with the idolatrous worship of gold, the auri sacra fames.] * [Footnote *: An English traveller, Mr. Wilkinson, has discovered the secret of the vocal Memnon.* There was a cavity in which a person was concealed, and struck a stone, which gave a ringing sound like brass.* The Arabs, who stood below when Mr. Wilkinson performed the miracle, described sound just as the author of the epigram. - M.] * * * [Footnote 48: Rufinus names the priest of Saturn, who, in the character of the god, familiarly conversed with many pious ladies of quality, till he betrayed himself, in a moment of transport, when he could not disguise the tone of his voice.* The authentic and impartial narrative of Aeschines, (see Bayle, Dictionnaire Critique, Scamandre,) and the adventure of Mudus, (Joseph. Antiquitat. Judaic. l. xviii. c. 3, p. 877 edit. Havercamp,) may prove that such amorous frauds have been practised with success.] * * * [Footnote 49: See the images of Serapis, in Montfaucon, (tom. ii. p. 297 but the description of Macrobius (Saturnal. l. i. c. 20) is much more picturesque and satisfactory.] * * * [Footnote 50:* Sed fortes tremuere manus, motique verenda*************** Majestate loci, si robora sacra ferirent*************** In sua credebant redituras membra secures. etc... ********************************** Laatst gewijzigd door eno2 : 16 september 2012 om 00:44. |
16 september 2012, 00:39 | #55 |
Banneling
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1 Gibbon vernoemt o.a. uw Socrates, lardner(heathen testimomies),Orosius, eunapius, sozoman, tillemont en anderen. Wie precies iets over de bib zegt is me onduidelijk
2 De correctie van Oliphant Smeaton "Gibbon seems to think that the whole of te serapeum was destroyed, but this was not the case, It was only the sanctuary of the God that was levelled with the ground, and the library, the halls and the other buildings in the consecrated ground remained standing long afterwards. Moreover, if we credit the destruction of the Alexandrian library by the Arabs under Amrou, which there seems no good reason to doubt, we must conclude that the library of the Serapeum existed down to AD 638 " Laatst gewijzigd door eno2 : 16 september 2012 om 00:46. |
17 september 2012, 23:09 | #56 |
Eur. Commissievoorzitter
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Hij was slechts één jaar Katholiek, van 1753 tot '54. Toen werd hij door een calvinistische predikant terug tot het protestantisme bekeerd. Wie zijn werk gelezen heeft, kan ook niet naast zijn haast viscerale afkeer voor het Katholicisme heen kijken. Nochtans is het Katholicisme net de Christelijke denominatie wiens tradities de sterkste band hebben met zaken uit het heidendom (het bestaan van heiligen, de reliekenverering, feestdagen, de opstelling van het altaar, de bouw van kerken enz.), zaken die het protestantisme omwille van haar extremistische 'sola scriptura'-overtuiging heeft proberen uit te roeien.
Laatst gewijzigd door Herr Oberst : 17 september 2012 om 23:10. |
18 september 2012, 11:59 | #57 | |
Banneling
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18 september 2012, 15:32 | #58 | |
Banneling
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Laatst gewijzigd door eno2 : 18 september 2012 om 15:35. |
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18 november 2012, 12:36 | #59 |
Banneling
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**** The ruin of Paganism, in the age of Theodosius, is perhaps the only example of the total extirpation of any ancient and popular superstition; and may therefore deserve to be considered as a singular event in the history of the human mind.*
Ik begrijp niet zo goed wat onder "singular event" moet verstaan worden. Iets dat heel geconcentreerd in de tijd plaats vindt? Dan kan dat volgens mij niet opgaan voor de uitroeiing van het paganisme. |
19 november 2012, 13:26 | #60 | |
Banneling
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