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Bekijk resultaten enquête: "AK-45 of M-16 ??"
AK-45 7 53,85%
M-16 4 30,77%
Beide. 2 15,38%
Aantal stemmers: 13. Je mag niet stemmen in deze enquête

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Oud 8 februari 2008, 22:28   #1
Lincoln
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Standaard "Russische roulette"

http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Deta...21928831080208

Citaat:
Poetin boos op Navo en VS
Nieuwe defensiestrategie voor Rusland


MOSKOU - De Russische president Vladimir Poetin haalt uit naar de Verenigde Staten en de Navo wegens hun 'militaire expansie naar de grenzen van Rusland'. Daarom heeft hij in een toespraak een nieuwe defensiestrategie voor zijn land aangekondigd.

Er kwam volgens Poetin geen enkele constructieve reactie op de vragen van Rusland met betrekking tot de Amerikaanse plannen om onderdelen voor een raketschild in Polen en de Tsjechische Republiek te plaatsen.

Wat de Amerikanen consultatie noemen is volgens Poetin niet meer dan 'een kennisgeving en diplomatieke dekmantel voor de tenuitvoerlegging van hun plannen'.

Rusland zal zijn krijgsmacht moderniseren en nieuwe wapens ontwikkelen om de nieuwe bedreigingen het hoofd te bieden. 'Wij worden hiertoe gedwongen', zei hij. Poetin zei zelfs dat een nieuwe wapenwedloop is begonnen. 'Wij zijn niet degenen die ermee begonnen zijn.'

Een Navo-woordvoerder zei in een reactie dat de verdragsorganisatie zich van de Russische zorgen bewust is en daar zoveel mogelijk rekening mee houdt. 'Maar uiteraard moeten we ook de belangen en de veiligheid van de Navo-lidstaten in acht nemen', aldus de woordvoerder.

Poetins toespraak wordt gezien als zijn afscheid als Russische president. Op 2 maart kiezen de Russen zijn opvolger. Poetin mag zich na twee opeenvolgende ambtstermijnen niet opnieuw herkiesbaar stellen. Poetin denkt er daarom aan om zich als premier kandidaat te stellen.
Tjonge jonge jonge ,en dat moet ik nu geloven ? Ik weet niet wat ik zou verkiezen indien mij de keus stelt tussen een ak-45 en een m-16 ???

Wat zou u verkiezen ? (er is geen ontkomen aan de keuze)
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Oud 8 februari 2008, 22:35   #2
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Kijk dit vooralleer je stemt !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

(deze draad is niet geschikt voor zachtaardigen, u bent verwittigd !)
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Laatst gewijzigd door Lincoln : 8 februari 2008 om 22:36.
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Oud 10 februari 2008, 03:04   #3
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Als aanvalswapen is de AK45 het meer nuttige.


De M16 heeft een te lichte kogel, die eerder zal verminken dan doden (wel nuttig militair gezien, een ramp humanitair), is een duurder wapen, met meer mechanische problemen.

De AK45 heeft maar 1 groot nadeel als aanvalswapen. Het gewicht van het wapen en de munitie.
Voor de rest spotgoedkoop, en zal werken, zelfs als een moslim het 5 jaar gebruikt. Een M16 zou het na een week al begeven in zulke handen.

Waarom denk je dat de Taliban nu gekochte/gestolen/gelijkenpikte AK's gebruikt, zelfs al hebben ze M16's gekregen per vrachtvliegtuiglading tijdens de USSR-Afghan war?
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Laatst gewijzigd door maddox : 10 februari 2008 om 03:05.
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Oud 10 februari 2008, 17:50   #4
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Mja...er lopen waarchijnlijk teveel mietjes op dit forum...
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Oud 10 februari 2008, 17:56   #5
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Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Lincoln Bekijk bericht
Mja...er lopen waarchijnlijk teveel mietjes op dit forum...
Het enige dat ik echt ken is de FNC. Al de rest is dikke zever.

Laatst gewijzigd door Ramón Gitannes : 10 februari 2008 om 17:57.
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Oud 10 februari 2008, 18:02   #6
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Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Ramón Gitannes Bekijk bericht
Het enige dat ik echt ken is de FNC. Al de rest is dikke zever.
Mja, niet echt mijn smaak !

Ik zou wel iets kunnen prefereren in een wapen dat; licht is en niet zwaar, scherp schiet en met een lange afstand vanuit de schietpunt tot aan het object, efficient voor gebruik ! beide wapens zowel m-16 ALS AK-45 beschikken niet tot deze kwaliteiten, en FNC lijkt mee van "lichtjes" zwaar !
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Oud 10 februari 2008, 18:18   #7
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Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Lincoln Bekijk bericht
Mja, niet echt mijn smaak !

Ik zou wel iets kunnen prefereren in een wapen dat; licht is en niet zwaar, scherp schiet en met een lange afstand vanuit de schietpunt tot aan het object, efficient voor gebruik ! beide wapens zowel m-16 ALS AK-45 beschikken niet tot deze kwaliteiten, en FNC lijkt mee van "lichtjes" zwaar !
Zeg wat je wil over de FNC, het gaat erom hoe je het kan gebruiken.
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Oud 13 februari 2008, 19:56   #8
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Ja, ja mannen , de M4 !!! En mix tussen ak-45 en m-16 en ook nog eens lichtjes !

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Oud 13 februari 2008, 20:00   #9
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Hier vinden we het artikel over M4:

Citaat:
The USA's M4 Carbine Controversy

Readers may recall "2006 Carbine Competition: What Happened, Revealed" back in February 2007. It discussed an Army solicitation for competitive procurement of 5.56mm carbines, which was withdrawn once the primary manufacturer Colt dropped its prices. The DoD's Inspector General got involved, and the Army dissented, defending its practices as a sound negotiating approach that saved the taxpayer a lot of money on the contract. As it turns out, there's a sequel. A major sequel, that's only getting bigger with time.

It seemed like a routine request. Order more M4 carbines for US forces in the pending FY 2007 supplemental, FY 2008 budget, and FY 2008 supplemental funding bills. It has turned into anything but a routine exercise, however – with serving soldiers, journalists, and Senators casting a very critical eye on the effort and the rifle, and demanding open competition.

With requests amounting to $375 million for weapons and $150 million in accessories, they say, the Army's proposal amounts to an effort to replace the M16 as the USA's primary battle rifle – using specifications that are around 15 years old, without a competition, and without considering whether better 5.56 mm alternatives might be available off the shelf. Meanwhile, the M4/M16 family is both praised and criticized for its current performance in the field. DID explains the effort, the issues, and the options.

The latest developments? The M4 and 3 competitors, including one M4 variant that can be converted from existing rifles, come out of a sandstorm reliability test – and the M4 finishes dead last, with more than 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. But the US Army publicly says that it doesn't care, and orders more….

The 5.56mm M-16 has been the USA's primary battle rifle since the Vietnam war, undergoing changes into progressive versions like the M16A2 widely fielded by the US Marine Corps, "Commando" carbine versions, et. al. The M4 Carbine is the latest member of the M16 family, offering a shorter weapon more suited to close-quarters battle, or use by units who would find a full-length rifle too bulky.

The M4 offers a collapsible buttstock, flat-top upper receiver assembly, a U-shaped handle-rear sight assembly that could be removed, and assortment of mounting rails for easy customization with a variety of sight, flashlight, grenade launchers, shotgun attachments, et. al. It achieves approximately 85% commonality with the M16, and has become a popular weapon. It has a reputation for lightness, customizability, and, compared to its most frequent rival the AK-47, a reputation for accuracy as well. The carbine's reputation for fast-point close-quarters fire remains its most prominent feature, however. After Action Reviews done by the Marines after the early phases of Operation Iraqi Freedom revealed that urban warfare scenarios made employment of the M16A2 difficult in some situations; Marines were picking up short AK-47s with collapsible butt-stocks, or scrounging pistols for use inside buildings.

Like its predecessor the M16, the M4 also has a reputation as an excellent weapon – if you can maintain it. Failure to maintain the weapon meticulously can lead to jams, especially in sandy or dusty environments. Kalashnikovs may not have a reputation for accuracy, or lightness – but they do have a well-earned reputation for being able to take amazing amounts of abuse, without maintenance, and still fire reliably. The Israeli "Galil" applied these lessons in 5.56mm caliber, and earned a similar reputation. Colt's M16 and M4 have never done so.

The original order for the M4 Carbine in the mid-1990s was a small-scale order, for a specifically requested derivative of the Army's primary battle rifle, to equip units who would otherwise have relied on less accurate 9mm submachine guns. As such, its direct development and sole-source contract status raised little fuss. Subsequent contracts also raised little scrutiny.

So, what changed?

1. Extended combat in dusty, sandy environments that highlighted the weapon's weak points as well as its comparative strengths, leading to escalating volumes of complaints;
2. The emergence of alternatives that preserve those strengths, while addressing those weak points;
3. The scale of the current request for funding.

Nobody Loves Me but My Mother – and She Could Be Jivin' Too…

There have been sporadic attempts to field more modern weapons during its tenure, including the unwieldy 20-or-so pound, 2 barrel, "someone watched Predator too many times" XM-29 OICW, and more recently the aborted contract for the G36-derived XM-8 weapon family from Heckler & Koch. Still, the M4's designers could never sing B.B. King's famous tune.

The M16/M4 family has achieved a great deal of success, and garnered many positive reviews for its features and performance. Even its critics acknowledge that it has many positive attributes. The M4 has also attracted criticism – and at least 1 comprehensive fix.

According to briefing documents obtained by Gannett's Army Times magazine:

"USMC officials said the M4 malfunctioned three times more often than the M16A4 during an assessment conducted in late summer 2002 for Marine Corps Systems Command at Quantico, VA. Malfunctions were broken down into several categories, including "magazine," "failure to chamber," "failure to fire," "failure to extract" and "worn or broken part," according to the briefing documents. During the comparison, the M4 failed 186 times across those categories over the course of 69,000 rounds fired. The M16A4 failed 61 times during the testing.

The Army conducted a more recent reliability test between October 2005 and April 2006, which included 10 new M16s and 10 new M4s…. On average, the new M16s and M4s fired approximately 5,000 rounds between stoppages, according to an Army official who asked that his name not be released."

In a subsequent letter to the magazine, M4 manufacturer Colt argued that the US Army had disagreed with the USMC study, then added that the Army and Colt had worked to make modifications thereafter in order to address problems found.

Gannett's Army Times magazine also obtained a copy of Project Manager Soldier's Weapons Assessment Team's July 31, 2003, report:

"The executive summary said that M16s and M4s "functioned reliably" in the combat zone as long as "soldiers conducted daily operator maintenance and applied a light coat of lubricant." "

Soldiers had their own comments, however, which were also included in the report and relayed in the magazine article:

3rd ID soldier: "I know it fires very well and accurate [when] clean. But sometimes it needs to fire dirty well too."

25th Infantry Division soldier: "The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights."

82nd Airborne Division soldier: "The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning."

75th Ranger Regiment member, SOCOM: "Even with the dust cover closed and magazine in the well, sand gets all inside; on and around the bolt. It still fires, but after a while the sand works its way all through the gun and jams start."

The 507th Maintenance Company, ambushed outside Nasariyah in 2003 during the opening days of the ground invasion of Iraq, might concur with all of the above. The post-incident report released by the US Army had this to say:

"Dusty, desert conditions do require vigilance in weapons maintenance… However, it is imperative to remember that at the time of the attack, the 507th had spent more than two days on the move, with little rest and time to conduct vehicle repair and recovery operations."

Even without those extenuating circumstances, however, there have been problems. A December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by CNA Corp., conducted over 2,600 interviews with Soldiers returning from combat duty. The M4 received a number of strong requests from M-16 users, who liked its smaller profile. Among M4 users, however, 19% of said they experienced stoppages in combat – and almost 20% of those said they were "unable to engage the target with that weapon during a significant portion of or the entire firefight after performing immediate or remedial action to clear the stoppage." The report adds that "Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached [including via official means like rail mounts]." Since "accessories" can include items like night sights, flashlights, et. al., their use is not expected to go away any time soon.

US Army Ranger Capt. Nate Self, whose M4 jammed into uselessness during a 2002 firefight after their MH-47 Chinook was shot down in Afghanistan's Shah-i-kot Mountains, offers another case. He won a Silver Star that day – with another soldier's gun – and his comments in the Army Times article appear to agree that there is a problem with the current M4 design and specifications.

SOCOM appears to agree as well. While US special Operations is moving ahead on their own SCAR rifle program with FN Herstal, they're also significant users of the M4 Carbine's SOPMOD version. By the time Capt. Self was fighting of al-Qaeda/Taliban enemies in Afghanistan with a broken weapon, Dellta Force had already turned to Heckler & Koch for a fix that would preserve the M4 but remove its problems. One of which is heat build-up and gas from its operating mechanism that dries out some lubricants, and helps open the way for sand damage.

In response, H&K replaced Colt's "gas-tube" system with a short-stroke piston system that eliminates carbon blow-back into the chamber, and also reduces the heat problem created by the super-hot gases used to cycle the M4. Other changes were made to the magazine, barrel, et. al. The final product was an M4 with a new upper receiver and magazine, plus H&K's 4-rail system of standard "Picatinny Rails" on the top, bottom, and both sides for easy addition of anything a Special Operator might require.

In exhaustive tests with the help of Delta Force, the upgraded weapon was subjected to mud and dust without maintenance, and fired day after day. Despite this treatment, the rifle showed problems in only 1 of 15,000 rounds – fully 3 times the reliability shown by the M4 in US Army studies. The H&K 416 was declared ready in 2004.

A rifle with everything they loved about the M4, and the fire-no-matter-what toughness of the Kalashnikov, was exactly what the Deltas ordered. SOCOM bought the first 500 weapons right off the assembly line, and its units have been using the weapon in combat ever since. Other Western Special Forces units who liked the M4 Carbine have also purchased HK416s, though H&K declines to name specific countries. US Major Chaz Bowser, who has played a leading role in SOSOCM's SCAR rifle design program:

"One thing I valued about being the weapons developer for Special Operations is that I could go to Iraq or Afghanistan or anywhere with whatever weapons I wanted to carry. As soon as the H&K 416 was available, it got stuffed into my kit bag and, through test after test, it became my primary carry weapon as a long gun. I had already gotten the data from folks carrying it before me and had determined that it would be foolish to risk my life with a lesser system."

Actually, they don't even have to buy the whole gun. Christian Lowe of Military.com reports that:

"In a routine acquisition notice March 23 [2007], a U.S. Special Forces battalion based in Okinawa announced that it is buying 84 upper receiver assemblies for the HK416 to modify their M4 carbines…. According to the solicitation for the new upper receiver assemblies, the 416 "allows Soldiers to replace the existing M4 upper receiver with an HK proprietary gas system that does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapon's interior. This reduces operator cleaning time, and increases the reliability of the M4 Carbine, particularly in an environment in which sand and dust are prevalent."

But the US Army won't consider even this partial replacement option. The Army position was reiterated in a release on April 2, 2007:

"The M4 Carbine is the Army's primary individual combat rifle for Infantry, Ranger, and Special Operations forces. Since its introduction in 1991, the M4 carbine has proven its worth on the battlefield because it is accurate, easy to shoot and maintain. The M4's collapsible stock and shortened barrel make it ideal for Soldiers operating in vehicles or within the confines associated with urban terrain. The M4 has been improved numerous times and employs the most current technology available on any rifle/carbine in general use today.

The M4 is the highest-rated weapon by Soldiers in combat, according to the Directorate of Combat Development, Ft. Benning, Ga. In December 2006, the Center for Naval Analysis conducted a "Soldiers' Perspective on Small Arms in Combat" survey. Their poll of over 2,600 Soldiers reported overwhelming satisfaction with the M4. The survey included serviceability and usefulness in completing assigned missions in Iraq and Afghanistan."

The Cry for Competition: How Much Is That HK In the Window?

The HK416 isn't the only alternative out there by any means – but it has been a catalytic alternative. In an analogous situation, limited USMC deployment of mine-resistant vehicles like Force Protection's Cougar and Buffalo in Iraq, and the contrast between v-hulled casualties and Hummer casualties, led to a cascade that now looks set to remove the Hummer from a front-line combat role. The technology to deal with insurgencies that used land-mines has been proven for over 30 years – but awareness of that fact didn’t rise within the US military and among its political overseers until an obvious counter-example was fielded. One that demonstrated proven alternatives to the limited options people had previous been shown. Likewise, the use of the high-commonality HK416 has served to sharpen awareness that the M4 might not be the best option on offer for US forces.

Couple that with a major buy that looks set to re-equip large sections of the US military with a new battle rifle, and the question "what if we can do better?" starts to take on real resonance. The Army's $375 million sole-source carbine procurement, on the basis of specifications that have not been changed to reflect these realities, is starting to raise hackles – and attract a wide spectrum of opponents.

Gannett's Army Times quoted former Army vice chief of staff Gen. Jack Keane (ret.), who tried at the end of his tenure to update the USA's infantry rifle with the XM-8 project, as saying:

"We are not saying the [M4 and M16 are] bad," said "The issue for me is do our soldiers have the best rifle in their hands…. The fact of the matter is that technology changes every 10 or 15 years and we should be changing with it. And that has not been our case. We have been sitting on this thing for far too long."

An aide to Sen. Tom Coburn [R-OK] agreed, and added that the substantial price reduction created by the mere threat of an open competition in 2006 was evidence that Colt had been using its sole-source status to overcharge the government. The Senator has sent a formal letter to the Secretary of the Army requesting an open competition in order to ensure both the best deal, and the best off-the shelf rifle that incorporates modern improvements. The winner could well be Colt, said Coburn's aide – but they should have to prove it, and earn it. "This is supposed to be a battle rifle." He said. "We're supposed to have a rifle that just doesn't jam." Impossible, of course – but one that jams far less often, and requires far less maintenance to avoid jams, while offering all of the M4's compactness and add-on ease… that would represent a significant step forward.

Ironically, even Colt may have a better system ready to go. In a letter to Army Times magazine, Colt COO James R. Battaglini (US Marine Corps Maj. Gen., ret.) said:

"The gas piston system in the H&K 416 is not a new system. Rifles were being designed with these systems in the 1920's. Colt proposed a piston operated weapon to the Army in the early 1960's. Today Colt Defense has the ability and expertise to manufacture in great numbers piston system carbines of exceptional quality should the U.S. military services initiate a combat requirement for this type of weapon"

Unfortunately, fighting the Army for improvements is no easy task. Colt CEO William Keys, who is also a retired USMC General, explained out to Army Times that Colt has to build what the US Army asks for, to the Army's exact specifications:

"If we have a change that we think would help the gun, we go to the Army… which is not an easy process, by the way. We spent 20 years trying to get [an extractor] spring changed. They just said 'well, this works good enough.' "

Sen. Coburn's letter to Secretary of the Army Peter Green takes a dim view of this entire situation:

"I am concerned about the Army's plans to procure nearly a half a million new rifles outside the any competitive procurement process…. There is nothing more important to a soldier than their rifle, and there is simply no excuse for not providing our soldiers with the best weapon – not just a weapon that is "good enough".... In the years following the Army's requirements document [DID: for the M4 in the early 1990s], a number of manufacturers have researched, tested, and fielded weapons which, by all accounts, appear to provide significantly improved reliability. To fail to allow a free and open competition of these operational weapons is unacceptable…. I believe the Army needs to rapidly revise its rifle and carbine requirements. Free and open competition will give our troops the best rifle in the world…."

His office awaits Green's reply. Meanwhile, calls about the M16/M4 are now coming in from Oklahoma, and other Senators and representatives are also hearing from constituents on this matter. A second letter from the Senate on this subject is likely if the Army digs in its heels – and that letter would have far more signatures at the bottom.

The issue currently hangs in limbo, along with the FY 2007 supplemental defense funding bill, as the FY 2008 defense budget slowly makes its way through Congressional committees. The Army says the M4 isn't broken, and adds that an Army-wide fix would cost $1 billion. Critics contend that when the army is already spending $525 million to re-equip the force with M4s, a competition to see if a better rifle exists is a moral and financial imperative.

Testing, Testing – Fairly?

In the end, Sen. Coburn exercised his ability as a Senator to block nomination of the proposed new Secretary of the Army, until the US Army relented and agreed to testing at the Army's Aberdeen Test Center in Maryland. Secretary Geren was confirmed shortly thereafter.

The tests will include the M4 and 3 other rifles: the M4-based HK416, the FNH USA-designed Mk16 SOCOM Combat Assault Rifle (best known as FN SCAR-L), and the H&K XM8 carbine. Unlike the M4, the HK416, XM8, and FN-SCAR all use gas-piston operating systems to achieve automatic fire. The XM8 family is an very updated version of the popular G36 in use with many NATO militaries; it was slated to be the M4's replacement, but that RFP was suspended by the Army in July 2005 and then canceled in October 2005. The FN-SCAR is a "live" program, and July 2007 marked the beginning of Special Operations Command's operational tests of the FN-SCAR 5.56mm Mk16 and the 7.62mm Mk17, which could become its future mainstays.

Miltary.com reports that the US Army sand tests will include 10 samples of each weapon through which engineers will fire 6,000 rounds. Each weapon and loaded magazine will be exposed to "extreme dust" for 30 minutes then test fired with 120 rounds. Each weapon will be wiped down and lubricated every 600 rounds, with a full cleaning every 1,200 rounds. The firing, collection of data and analysis of data is expected to take approximately 5 months.

One's first reaction upon seeing the proposed testing regimen is to compare it very unfavorably with the regimen Delta Force put the HK416 through, firing it day after day without maintenance for thousands of rounds. Or even the testing HK itself uses for its HK416s. Indeed, it seems on its face to be a test designed to minimize the very weaknesses in the M4 incumbent that have triggered this controversy. Those who believe the cycle is reasonable cite 300 rounds as the soldier's 1-day load, and say that under sand storm conditions, a once a day wipedown is the bare minimum for any weapon. Every 600 rounds is thus a safety factor of 2 against the worst possible conditions. Of course, sandstroms have a way of lasting more than one day, and when they do – as in the initial portion of Operation Iraqi Freedom – even vehicle interiors may feature a fine particulate haze.

Within its chosen regimen, there are 3 key ways the Army may choose to bias the test. One is the size of the particulate in the dust chamber – which can be made large in relative terms to lower the number of problems with fouling and jams. The biggest problems in theater are with the very fine particulates. This is especially relevant given the October 2004 report prepared by the Desert Research Institute for the US military. "Geochemical and Physical Characteristics of Iraqi Dust and Soil Samples" [PDF format, 2.9 MB] stated that:

"....current chamber test methodology misrepresents real-world conditions. The character of the soils and dust collected from areas of military activity in Iraq is greatly different from the material used in current weapons testing procedures. Current procedures employ laboratory generated dust that is 99.7% silicon dioxide (i.e. quartz), contains no salt or reactive chemicals, and contains coarser particle sizes than most of the Iraq samples. Use of this material cannot simulate conditions in Iraq that have contributed to the weapons failures."

The next item to watch is whether the rifles used are randomly chosen, or cherry picked and then pre-maintained to perform at an unusual reliability level vs. a field weapon. A third way of gaming the testing system involves the level of lubrication used. One source noted that the first dust test new M4s had 9,836 jams in 60,000 rounds – almost one jam every 6 rounds. The Army kept working on the test until they figured out a "generous lubrication" approach that used far more than the manufacturer recommended, but lowered jams to 1 in 88 rounds. A fair test must match the manufacturer's manual for each weapon, or use the same lubrication for each weapon based on the minimum recommended among all test weapons.

UPDATES: The Tests, Reactions, and Subsequent Developments

Late December 2007: DID obtains some exact results from the Army's testing. The Army has now done three dust tests. In the late 2006/Jan 2007 report "Baseline Reliability and Dust Assessment for the M4, M16, and M249," the M4 jammed 9,836 times – 1 jam every 6 rounds. In a May 2007 "Extreme Dust Test II", with no competitors, the M4 had 1 jam every 88 rounds, using heavy lubrication. In the November 2007 "Extreme Dust Test III", as DID has discussed, the competing rifles were subject to significantly more maintenance and lubrication than elite American forces like Delta used in their weapon selection process, or indeed in HK's own field testing of its HK416s prior to shipment.

We'll begin with the Army's overall results, from its own release:

"Even with extreme dust test III's 98.6 percent success rate there was a total of 863 class 1 and 2 weapon/magazine stoppages with 19 class 3 stoppages. During extreme dust test II conducted during the summer, there were 296 total class 1 and 2 stoppages and 11 class 3 stoppages.

A class 1 stoppage is one a Soldier can clear within 10 seconds; a class 2 stoppage is one a Soldier can clear, but requires more than 10 seconds; and, class 3 is a stoppage that requires an armorer to clear."

DID will simply point out that 10 seconds can be a rather fatally long time when people are shooting at you, and at your friends. So, what happens when the Extreme Dust Test III stoppages are broken out by weapon?

The M4 Carbine is the Army's existing weapon.

* 882 jams, 1 jam every 68 rounds, again using heavy lubrication. In addition all 10 of the M4 barrels needed to be replaced, and a number of their parts were replaced during the test. None of the cold hammer forged HK416 and XM-8 barrels needed replacement.

The HK416 is a modified M4 carbine, which can be and has been converted from existing rifles. Used by US Special Forces.

* 233 jams, 1 jam every 257 rounds, 3.77x more reliable than the M4.

FN SCAR is US special Forces' new weapon, designed by SOSOCM. It just went into production in late 2007.

* 226 jams, 1 jam every 265 rounds, 3.85x more reliable than the M4

XM-8 is a developmental rifle. It's an advanced version of HK's G36, a rifle in wide use by many NATO armies. The US Army cancelled the XM-8 weapons family 2 years ago.

* 127 jams, I jam every 472 rounds, 6.95x more reliable than the M4.

The failure of M4 barrels at 6,000 rounds confirms SOCOM objections that date back to the Feb 23/01 report "M4A1 5.56mm Carbine and Related Systems Deficiencies and Solutions," which ended up concluding that "M4A1 Carbine… does not meet the requirements of SOF." The barrel replacement also increases the rifle's life cycle costs when compared with the 10,000 round advertised barrel life, as additional barrels are sold to the Army for $240 each. A longer, heavier M16 barrel, which is a competed production weapon, cost $100 by comparison. While the dust test is indeed an extreme test, the 10,000 round requirement is under "all conditions" – not just ideal conditions.

Dec 18/07: The US Army publishes "M-4 Carbine Has High Soldier Confidence Despite Test." Not exactly a headline to inspire confidence, as the Army acknowledges that the M4 Carbine finished last among the 4 contenders – but amazingly, asserts that the rifle is just fine and shows no interest in buying even the HK416's parts swap-out into the existing M4:

"After being exposed to the heavy dusting, 10 of each weapon fired 6,000 rounds apiece. They were fired in 50 120-round cycles. Each was then wiped and re-lubricated at the 600 round mark. After 1,200 rounds were fired from each weapon, they were fully cleaned and re-lubricated… "While the M-4 finished fourth out of four, 98 percent of all the rounds fired from it went off down range as they were supposed to do," Brig. Gen. [Mark] Brown [commander of Program Executive Office Soldier and the Natick Soldier Systems Center] said. "However, the three other candidates did perform better at about a 99 percent rate or better, which is a mathematically statistically significant difference, but not an operationally statistical difference.".... The Army has put an option on an existing contract for 64,450 M4s, according to the general."

"A mathematically statistically significant difference, but not an operationally statistical difference." Perhaps the US Army could put that on their recruiting posters, next to a picture of a jammed rifle.

June 29/07: A document circulated on Capitol Hill asking for testing includes these excerpts:

"The Army has claimed "83% reported confidence that the M4 will not suffer major breakage or failure that necessitates repair before further use" – A soldier should be 100% confident that his weapon will not break the next time he fires it…. Since the M16 was introduced in Vietnam the answer has always been "It’s the soldiers' fault"... The Special Operations Command has the most proficient soldiers in the world, they shoot the most and they operate in the most difficult environments – In 2001 SOCOM was highly critical of the reliability of the M4, and they chose to adopt a new weapon – the SCAR. Our Tier 1 units – like Delta Force, and Seal Team 6 have all abandoned the M4 for other weapons that is [sic] significantly more reliable."

Any Last Words?

Sgt. Charles Perales of Fort Bragg, NC had this to say in a letter reprinted by Defense News:

"My unit — B Company, 2nd Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment — was deployed to Afghanistan from April 2005 to March 2006. While there, we were attached to Special Forces at Camp Tillman on the Afghan border…. I saw first-hand what happens when your weapon jams up because of the harsh environments we have to call home there. An 18B weapons sergeant was shot in the face due directly to his weapon jamming. I just can't believe that after things like this happen, the Army is still buying more M4s.

Why not rotate them like we used to before the war? All rapid-deploying units used to get the new M4, the support units would get the excess M16s and so on. I'm not saying they need to outfit the whole Army with a new weapon, but why not start phasing it in? ....Soldiers' lives are on the line. Why is it a hassle to make an improvement that could save lives?

The M4 isn't a bad weapon; it just needs improvements. It's about time people stop fighting to keep things the same and start moving toward a better weapon system."

The last word will be left to SOCOM's Major Chaz Bowser:

"We buy new laptop computers every few years across the gamut, so couldn't we do the same with our single most important piece of military equipment? .... Waiting for a leap-ahead technology based on a kinetic energy weapon platform is a waste of time and money, so we need to look at what is out there now…. What the Army needs is a weapon that is now ready for prime-time and not a developmental system…. The requirement comes from the field, not from an office in some garrison activity, not from some consultant and definitely not from a vendor.

Let's do this quickly without all the bureaucracy typically associated with change. Find someone in our ranks who can make a decision – who hasn't floated a retirement resume with a gun company – and make the decision now. Just look how fast we were all issued the 'highly coveted' black beret or the digital uniform. Find that recipe card, change out the word 'Velcro' with 'battle rifle' and that may be a start to finding a solution [DID: which, he acknowledges, could be Colt's M4 if that's what the competition shows]. Our men and women deserve much better than we are giving them, and shame on us."

Bron: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/lan...new-rifle.html
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Laatst gewijzigd door Lincoln : 13 februari 2008 om 20:01.
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Oud 13 februari 2008, 20:11   #10
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FN-FAL (en volgelingen) + AK-47 (en volgelingen), omdat het Europese wapens zijn. Beter dus dan die Amerikaanse brol. Amerikaanse Vietnamveteranen hadden veel klachten over de M-16 die blokkeerde tijdens een gevecht.
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Oud 13 februari 2008, 20:29   #11
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mijn persoonlijk gedacht (als sportschutter reeds met de diverse wapens kunnen schieten) :

M16 en FNC schieten allebei dezelfde munitie : 223R (of 5.56 mm). Een nauwkeurig kaliber tot maximum 300 meter, maar weinig "stopkracht" en te beperkte long-range mogelijkheden voor militaire doeleinden. Wel een leuk kaliber voor de sportschutter, wegens de beperkte terugslag en de hoge nauwkeurigheid. Wanneer je kijkt naar de versies met korte loop, dan geven die toch een nijdige terugslag en de korte loop gaat ten koste van de nauwkeurigheid op langere afstand. Het beste geweer in dit kaliber is volgens mij de versie van het zwitserse leger : de SIG SG550 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as25-e.htm)

De AK-47 schiet de 7,62x39mm : grotere impact, maar minder nauwkeurigheid.

Het beste "all-round" kaliber blijft in mijn ogen de 308Nato (of 7,62x51mm) : nauwkeurig tot 700 meter, beheersbare terugslag, hoge stopkracht voor militair gebruik, hoge nauwkeurigheid voor militair/sportschutters/jacht gebruik. En het belgische FN heeft daar een van de meest betrouwbare militaire geweren ooit voor gemaakt (de FN FAL). Nadelen : niet controleerbaar voor militair "full-auto" gebruik, en gewicht van de munitie die moet meegedragen worden.

Persoonlijk plan ik me binnenkort (als sportschutter) de aankoop van een 223 grendelgeweer voor het precisieschieten op 100 meter(waarschijnlijk een CZ 527 met varmint loop : http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&id...dz=214&lang=en). Allez, Feremanske, noem mij nog maar nen keer ne "freak"


de 7,62x39mm, de 223 en de 308 hebben het voordeel ook goedkope geweermunitie te zijn, wegens de massale productie (als sportschutter maakt dat wel een heel verschil in het budget uit).

Laatst gewijzigd door ynneb : 13 februari 2008 om 20:30.
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Oud 13 februari 2008, 20:31   #12
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AK-45???

AK-74M is wel lekker, of een H&K416 ipv een AR-15 variant
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Oud 11 mei 2008, 17:02   #13
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Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door maddox Bekijk bericht
Waarom denk je dat de Taliban nu gekochte/gestolen/gelijkenpikte AK's gebruikt, zelfs al hebben ze M16's gekregen per vrachtvliegtuiglading tijdens de USSR-Afghan war?
Ze moesten ze zelfs niet pikken.
Waarom denk je dat het Amerikaanse leger 110.000 AK 47 en géén M 16's leverde aan de Irakezen om op elkaar te schieten? Ben je dan zo zeker dat ze M-16's leverden aan de Taliban? AK 47/AK74 lijkt me logischer (véél goedkoper en betrouwbaarder):
Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door BBC:
Losing track of guns, losing track of Iraq?

As the Pentagon is accused by US auditors of losing track of 190,000 AK-47 assault rifles and pistols given to the Iraqi security forces, the BBC's Nick Childs considers what this means for US strategy.

This report is particularly embarrassing for the Pentagon, in part because the plan to train and equip new Iraqi security forces has been so central to its strategy in the country.

PENTAGON'S MISSING HARDWARE
AK-47 rifles: 110,000
Pistols: 80,000
Body armour pieces: 135,000
Helmets: 115,000

And, while it has been alleged before that weapons bound for the Iraqis have gone missing, the numbers in this report are striking.

The report comes from the Government Accountability Office (GAO) which is an independent US government agency that is essentially the watchdog and investigative arm for the US Congress.

The GAO says that, of some 185,000 assault rifles and 170,000 pistols that the Pentagon says it supplied to the Iraqi security forces, it can account for less than half: there is a discrepancy of 110,000 in the case of AK-47s, and 80,000 pistols.

The gaps in the figures for body armour and helmets are even bigger - only 80,000 out of a total of 215,000 sets of body armour accounted for, and only 25,000 out of 140,000 helmets.

The report does not say it knows what has happened to the weapons - only that there are gaping holes in the records.

Wrong hands?
The focus of the report is on perceived Pentagon failures but, by implication, it also raises questions about the capabilities and reliability of the Iraqi security forces. There is the fear, again long suspected, that many of the missing weapons have found their way into the hands of insurgents.

There remain question marks over the reliability of elements of the Iraqi security forces, especially the police.

Of course, the Pentagon was under huge pressure from early on to try to achieve quick results in its programme to train and equip the Iraqi forces.

These faltered on more than one occasion and tracking what happened to the weaponry may not have been the top priority for limited resources.

In barely more than a month now, the top US military commander in Iraq, Gen David Petraeus, and the US ambassador, Ryan Crocker, are meant to give their assessment of how the latest US strategy for the country is working.

This latest report may well provide more ammunition for the sceptics.

Gen Petraeus arrived in Iraq earlier this year with a huge reputation, not least because he was credited with turning round the training programme on his previous assignment to the country.

But he was also in charge of it for much of the time covered by this investigation - and that could damage his credibility.

Money request
Whether the Iraqi security forces are up to the job, and whether they have enough of the right equipment, remain keys issues for the way ahead in Iraq.

And the Pentagon has, according to the GAO report, asked for another $2bn for new equipment for those forces.

The Pentagon says it accepts key recommendations in the report on improving records and accountability, and that steps have been taken.

But the report says that, as of last month, the Pentagon had not specified what the accounting procedures were.

BRON
__________________________________________________ _________
Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door the Times:
From Times OnlineAugust 6, 2007

US loses track of 190,000 weapons in Iraq
Tim Reid in Washington
More than 190,000 AK-47 rifles and pistols given to Iraqi security forces in 2004 and 2005 are missing, raising fears that US and British troops are fighting an enemy armed with American weapons.

According to a damning report issued by the US Congress’s investigative office, the Pentagon has lost track of 110,000 rifles, 80,000 pistols, 135,000 items of body armour and 115,000 helmets.

The report, by the non-political Government Accountability Office, said that from June 2004 to September 2005 US officials in Iraq reported issuing 355,000 weapons to local security forces and are now unable to account for more than half of them.

The number of missing weapons produced by the audit is far higher than previously suspected. Last year a similar report estimated that about 14,000 US weapons were unaccounted for.


The GAO audit said that weapons distribution was rushed and haphazard and failed to follow established rules of accountability. It focused on the period when training of Iraqi security forces was led by General David Petraeus, now the ground commander in charge of President Bush’s “surge” strategy. The report states that from 2004 until the end of 2005 no central record was kept of weapons distribution.

The Pentagon did not dispute the findings. According to the GAO, the Pentagon still does not have a standard recording system. It said that its review of the 2007 property books found continuing problems with missing and incomplete records.

In relation to the missing weapons, the US military was consistently unable to find supporting documents to “confirm when the equipment was received, the quantities of equipment delivered and the Iraqi units receiving the equipment.”

The reports added that the failure to track the weapons was due to a lack of staff, together with a rush to equip nascent Iraqi forces as the insurgency gained strength in 2004 and 2005. It appears that the US military was rushing out weapons to Iraqi units as fast as possible, with little oversight. Some of those units, particularly in places such as Fallujah, have since dissolved or merged back into the civilian population.

Since 2003, the US Congress has provided about $19.2 billion (£9.5 billion) to develop and train Iraqi security forces, according to the GAO report. The Pentagon has recently asked for a further $2 billion to continue the training programme, a cornerstone of the Bush administration’s strategy in Iraq.

Mark Kimmitt, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for the Middle East, said that, in view of the matters raised by the report, the Department of Defence was reviewing its policies and procedures to ensure that equipment reached the troops for whom they were intended.


BRON

Laatst gewijzigd door filosoof : 11 mei 2008 om 17:05.
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Oud 11 mei 2008, 19:29   #14
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Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Lincoln Bekijk bericht
Mja...er lopen waarchijnlijk teveel mietjes op dit forum...
Wat probeer je nu te bereiken Lincoln? De inhoud van jouw draad komt al niet overeen met het gebruikte artikel in het begin en dan probeer je mensen uit hun tent te lokken ivm de keuze van een wapen.

Weirdo...
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Oud 13 mei 2008, 14:46   #15
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Nog nooit van een AK-45 gehoord.Wel van een Ak-47 en een AK-74.
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Oud 13 mei 2008, 15:06   #16
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De AK-47 blinkt op alle vlakken behalve nauwkeurigheid uit.
Het gebrek aan nauwkeurigheid wordt echter voor een groot deel gecompenseerd door de mogelijkheid de vijand neer te leggen met een muur van lood. De AK-47 is duurzamer en makkelijker te onderhouden dan de M-16
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Oud 13 mei 2008, 15:25   #17
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gezellige draad
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Oud 13 mei 2008, 16:01   #18
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Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door morgen Bekijk bericht
gezellige draad
Een typisch "Kif-Kif" draadje denk ik
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Oud 13 mei 2008, 16:18   #19
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Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Lincoln Bekijk bericht
http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Deta...21928831080208



Tjonge jonge jonge ,en dat moet ik nu geloven ? Ik weet niet wat ik zou verkiezen indien mij de keus stelt tussen een ak-45 en een m-16 ???

Wat zou u verkiezen ? (er is geen ontkomen aan de keuze)
Het US Army gelooft schijnbaar in de AK 47, AK 74 etc:
(de regering in de M-16?)

Citaat:
Losing track of guns, losing track of Iraq?

As the Pentagon is accused by US auditors of losing track of 190,000 AK-47 assault rifles and pistols given to the Iraqi security forces, the BBC's Nick Childs considers what this means for US strategy.

This report is particularly embarrassing for the Pentagon, in part because the plan to train and equip new Iraqi security forces has been so central to its strategy in the country.

PENTAGON'S MISSING HARDWARE
AK-47 rifles: 110,000
Pistols: 80,000
Body armour pieces: 135,000
Helmets: 115,000

And, while it has been alleged before that weapons bound for the Iraqis have gone missing, the numbers in this report are striking.

The report comes from the Government Accountability Office (GAO) which is an independent US government agency that is essentially the watchdog and investigative arm for the US Congress.

The GAO says that, of some 185,000 assault rifles and 170,000 pistols that the Pentagon says it supplied to the Iraqi security forces, it can account for less than half: there is a discrepancy of 110,000 in the case of AK-47s, and 80,000 pistols.

The gaps in the figures for body armour and helmets are even bigger - only 80,000 out of a total of 215,000 sets of body armour accounted for, and only 25,000 out of 140,000 helmets.

The report does not say it knows what has happened to the weapons - only that there are gaping holes in the records.

Wrong hands?
The focus of the report is on perceived Pentagon failures but, by implication, it also raises questions about the capabilities and reliability of the Iraqi security forces. There is the fear, again long suspected, that many of the missing weapons have found their way into the hands of insurgents.

There remain question marks over the reliability of elements of the Iraqi security forces, especially the police.

Of course, the Pentagon was under huge pressure from early on to try to achieve quick results in its programme to train and equip the Iraqi forces.

These faltered on more than one occasion and tracking what happened to the weaponry may not have been the top priority for limited resources.

In barely more than a month now, the top US military commander in Iraq, Gen David Petraeus, and the US ambassador, Ryan Crocker, are meant to give their assessment of how the latest US strategy for the country is working.

This latest report may well provide more ammunition for the sceptics.

Gen Petraeus arrived in Iraq earlier this year with a huge reputation, not least because he was credited with turning round the training programme on his previous assignment to the country.

But he was also in charge of it for much of the time covered by this investigation - and that could damage his credibility.

Money request
Whether the Iraqi security forces are up to the job, and whether they have enough of the right equipment, remain keys issues for the way ahead in Iraq.

And the Pentagon has, according to the GAO report, asked for another $2bn for new equipment for those forces.

The Pentagon says it accepts key recommendations in the report on improving records and accountability, and that steps have been taken.

But the report says that, as of last month, the Pentagon had not specified what the accounting procedures were.

BRON
Hier ook:

The Times

(in rustige periode en kalme omgeving zou ik de M16 kiezen, als 't tegen een stootje moet kunnen en de fondsen zijn laag, een AK 47 of AK 74, liefst de lichtere 5.5mm AK 74):

AK74

een vergelijking(klik)

Laatst gewijzigd door filosoof : 13 mei 2008 om 16:36.
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Oud 13 mei 2008, 17:51   #20
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Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Lincoln Bekijk bericht
http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Deta...21928831080208



Tjonge jonge jonge ,en dat moet ik nu geloven ? Ik weet niet wat ik zou verkiezen indien mij de keus stelt tussen een ak-45 en een m-16 ???

Wat zou u verkiezen ? (er is geen ontkomen aan de keuze)
Wat zou u daar mee willen aanvangen ? Op wie wilt u schieten ?
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