De waarheid onthuld...

[Uh-Huh]

Via links op allerlei discussiefora, ben ik terecht gekomen op de blog van een Amerikaanse rabbijn, namelijk Brant Rosen. Hij is in 2008 door Newsweek nog genoemd als één van de top 25 rabbijnen van de VS.

Er is een post van hem die me bijzonder opviel: http://rabbibrant.com/2009/01/06/isr...ion/#more-2717

"Amidst the myriad of articles, news reports and blog posts I have read this past week, the one that has stuck with me the longest is a five year old Jerusalem Post interview with Israeli geographer Arnon Soffer. Soffer is widely regarded as the architect of Sharon’s disengagement plan and his insights (as morally repugnant as they are) are critical for our understanding of the actual intentions behind Israel’s pullout from Gaza. In their tragically ironic way, I believe Soffer’s words are are profoundly important in helping us understand why it shouldn’t be such a surprise that things have now come to this."

“It’s the Demography, Stupid”
Ruthie Blum
Jerusalem Post May 21, 2004

Late in his career geographer, Arnon Soffer, was hardly known outside academia, until he conceived the idea that may reshape Israel’s history.
ONE ON ONE

‘I thought I’d never hear myself say this,” says Haifa University geographer Arnon Soffer, without a trace of self-doubt, “but Israel will have to relinquish the Jordan Valley.”

Soffer, a geostrategist widely seen as the originator of Ariel Sharon’s separation plan, has never been one to pull proverbial punches. A prominent figure in the public debate on disengagement, Soffer has been a leading purveyor of apocalyptic predictions about Israel’s demographic problem vis-a-vis the Arabs for more than three decades.

At 68, his stature and super-confident demeanor make him seem almost too large for his tiny office, which, he says, has become the venue for meetings with everyone from military brass to Knesset members.

“Many people said I was crazy,” says Soffer, a glint of self- satisfaction in his eye. “But since then, they have come to realize I was right.”

As the cabinet prepares to vote on the latest proposal next week, Soffer discussed with us the rationale behind the plan he conceived, the prospects for its execution, and challenges ahead of Israel in what he believes is an inherently hostile neighborhood.

Was the disengagement idea yours?

The day he was elected prime minister Sharon asked me to bring him a [disengagement] map I published in 2001. I have been a leading figure on this issue for years.

When did he first summon you?

We had met throughout the years many times. He knows me well, and requested the meeting.

You’re considered a demographic prophet of doom. How did that happen?

In 1970, as a young geographer, I decided to focus on military geography - or geopolitics. Then, while working on the national masterplan for the north, I became obsessed with the problem of the Israeli Arabs that I saw developing in the Galilee. In retrospect, this had an effect on where the Jewish hilltop communities were later established. Many people said I was crazy. But since then, they have come to realize I was right.

In 1975, I began researching the problem more seriously. That’s when I grasped that the issue is about demography. I began taking members of the defense establishment to the Galilee to show them what was happening. Slowly, I created awareness.

After that, I started bringing the same people to the Seamline. For the past 15 years, every week, once or twice a week, I accompany the highest-ranking defense officials there.

In 1988, I published a pamphlet in which I raised the question of whether Zionism is a dream or not. The 1,000 copies of the pamphlet disappeared immediately. Arafat received a copy of it, and then, for the first time, said that the Palestinian womb is a biological weapon.

It was around that time that I began to say publicly that Israel’s days were numbered. After researching the subject I concluded there was no way Oslo would work, and I told Bibi Netanyahu that Oslo had to be stopped immediately. Bibi read my material, and quoted it in his book, A Place Under the Sun, in a chapter on demography.

Speaking of Bibi, his attitude toward the plan has been ambiguous.

Bibi understands that we have to disengage - he has said so on more than one occasion. But Bibi is also a political animal, and he considers Sharon a rival. Unfortunately, politicians are often willing to sell out the country for their own personal considerations. This is true of the whole Knesset.

Take the mass rally in Tel Aviv on Saturday night. Each party came there in order to get rid of someone else. That whole thing was ridiculous.

Didn’t the rally express widespread support for disengagement?

Had it been a protest against the Likud’s rejection of disengagement, even I would have participated. But there was Yossi Beilin who came to sell his wares. And Ami Ayalon. And Shimon Peres, who only cares about Shimon Peres.

What do you make of the Likud’s rejection of its own leader’s plan?

The Likud is filled with ignoramuses. A day doesn’t go by without me running into a Likud member who can’t tell you where Kalkilya is, or, for that matter, where the Green Line is.

I keep a map of the country from 1966 in my office, because it shows where the Green Line really is. I also have a map that shows how the Palestinians view the country. In it, the entire State of Israel is theirs. That’s something the Israeli Left would like to forget.

How does the current fighting in Rafah relate to the disengagement plan?

Disengagement is one thing and the Philadelphi Route [the narrow road separating the Gaza Strip from Egypt] is another. Even after disengagement - which I have no doubt Prime Minister Sharon will pass within the next two or three weeks - Philadelphi will have to be guarded heavily, to keep Egyptian forces from deploying in Gaza.

The operation in Rafah is a welcome necessity. The terrorist gangs who rule there must be wiped out, and the tunnels blocked. The proposed moat is also a good idea, though technically and physically complicated.

Some oppose disengagement because they think that until the Palestinians accept Israel’s existence, no solution can be viable.

They say something worse than that. People like Effi Eitam and Benny Elon say the Palestinians should set up their homeland in the Sinai. I asked Eitam at the Herzliya Conference whether he spoke to Hosni Mubarak about this plan and he said “not yet.” I’m telling you, these people are out of their minds. The Right is insane for believing in transfer, because they’re not reading the international map - I mean, look what happened in Kosovo - and the Left is insane for believing in plans like the Geneva Accord, which begins by saying “There will be mutual faith” between us and the Palestinians.

Is that why you opposed Oslo? Because it wasn’t unilateral?

Yes. In 2001, I told a gathering of the country’s economists that the country’s demographic clock is ticking, and that unless we made courageous decisions, Israel’s countdown would begin. I caused an earthquake.

Faisal Husseini said in response: “Israel will end up begging us to leave them one tiny strip of land.”

I’ve been screaming this from the rooftops to anyone who will listen. Had you hung around the corridor outside my office during the last two months, you would have thought it was the Knesset, since so many politicians have been through here to listen to my demographic predictions.

Dan Meridor said I convinced him.

Six months ago, Ehud Olmert said “Professor Soffer convinced me; we can’t escape this any more.” Sharon, as you see, also understands it.

What about your former Haifa University colleague Yuval Steinitz? He hasn’t been won over

Before he became a Knesset Member, we used to travel together to Tel Aviv every week for meetings on the subject. He understands it very well - who is he trying to kid that he doesn’t understand it? He is familiar with every number and statistic that appears in my research.

In 1987, at a meeting organized by [former ambassador to the US] Zalman Shoval between myself, Shoval, [nuclear physicist and right- wing leader] Yuval Ne’eman and Ghandi [the late Rehavam Ze'evi], I began by presenting the demographic statistics. Ne’eman got up and said: “Don’t believe a word of what Arnon Soffer is telling you: The Central Bureau of Statistics also belongs to the Left.”

At that moment, Ghandi got up and said: “I’ve known Arnon for many years. I accept every word of what he is saying. This country is not something we can forfeit, but people can be transferred.” That’s when he decided to found the Moledet Party.

Shulamit Aloni phoned, and my wife said to her: “You see, Arnon talks too much.”

Two months later, prime minister Yitzhak Shamir was introduced to me and said: “Oh, that’s you who’s bothering everybody with your statistics.” So, I told him [that] he and Shulamit Aloni had something in common: my statistics bothered both of them.

So you ignored your critics and continued to “bother” them with your statistics.

As an academic, it’s my job to publish my research. Look, these demographics are facts. The world is going insane. Islam is going wild. There is going to be a clash of civilizations. In the Middle East, there is going to be the highest Arab birth rate in the world. There cannot be peace.

Let’s view it from a Palestinian perspective. Let’s pretend you and I are Arafat and Yasser Abed Rabbo looking at the map. Look at what the Jews are going to leave us for a state. They’re going to leave us the Gaza Strip - which is no more than a crowded “prison.” Then there’s another “prison” called Hebron, and another, larger one called Samaria. Here there are 1.6 million, here 1 million, and here 1.5 million (soon to be 3 million). Each of these “prisons” is cut off from the rest. The Jews won’t permit us to have an army, while their own powerful army will surround us. They won’t permit us to have an air force, while their own air force will fly over us. They won’t allow us the Right of Return. Why should we make a deal with them? Why should we accept a state from them? Let’s wait patiently for another 10 years, when the Jews will comprise a mere 40 percent of the country, while we will be 60 percent. The world won’t allow a minority to rule over a majority, so Palestine will be ours. The fact that in the meantime Palestinian kids are being killed doesn’t matter; what matters is that Palestine will be ours.

Isn’t it logical for the Palestinians to see it this way?

So, while Abed Rabbo is off talking to Yossi Beilin, and Sari Nusseibeh is off talking to Ami Ayalon, time is passing and Palestinian women are getting pregnant. This, coupled with the flood of Arabs from other countries - 300,000 since 1948 - means they’re going to finish us off.

This is why I keep saying that in order to save the State of Israel, we have to separate unilaterally, and as quickly as possible.

Sharon clearly agrees with you. Why, then, did he bring his plan to the Likud for a vote?

He and his two sons are about to be indicted. There is no other logical explanation. Then again, he’s clearly going to pass the plan - in two to three weeks.

How will the region look the day after unilateral separation?

The Palestinians will bombard us with artillery fire - and we will have to retaliate. But at least the war will be at the fence - not in kindergartens in Tel Aviv and Haifa.

Will Israel be prepared to fight this war?

First of all, the fence is not built like the Berlin Wall. It’s a fence that we will be guarding on either side. Instead of entering Gaza, the way we did last week, we will tell the Palestinians that if a single missile is fired over the fence, we will fire 10 in response. And women and children will be killed, and houses will be destroyed. After the fifth such incident, Palestinian mothers won’t allow their husbands to shoot Kassams, because they will know what’s waiting for them.

Second of all, when 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it’s going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It’s going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.

While CNN has its cameras at the wall?

If we don’t kill, we will cease to exist. The only thing that concerns me is how to ensure that the boys and men who are going to have to do the killing will be able to return home to their families and be normal human beings.

What will the end result of all this killing be?

The Palestinians will be forced to realize that demography is no longer significant, because we’re here and they’re there. And then they will begin to ask for “conflict management” talks - not that dirty word “peace.” Peace is a word for believers, and I have no tolerance for believers - neither those who wear yarmulkes nor those who pray to the God of peace. There are those who make pilgrimages to the Baba Sali and the tombs in Hebron, and those who make pilgrimages to Kikar Rabin in Tel Aviv. Both are dangerous.

Unilateral separation doesn’t guarantee “peace” - it guarantees a Zionist-Jewish state with an overwhelming majority of Jews; it guarantees the kind of safety that will return tourists to the country; and it guarantees one other important thing. Between 1948 and 1967, the fence was a fence, and 400,000 people left the West Bank voluntarily. This is what will happen after separation. If a Palestinian cannot come into Tel Aviv for work, he will look in Iraq, or Kuwait, or London. I believe that there will be movement out of the area.

Voluntary transfer?

Yes. And Gaza is going to be such a disaster that it will be beyond our capacity to help. There will have to be large-scale international aid. The US will have to pressure Egypt to cede land. And - though I never thought I’d hear myself say this - Israel will have to relinquish the Jordan Valley.

What about the Israeli Arabs? If they, too, cause a demographic problem, how will unilateral separation help?

The population increase of Israeli Arabs is going to present a major problem. But, if we no longer include the Palestinians, and we begin embracing immigrants, foreign workers, Druse, and Christians - who are now on our side, because they see what crazy radical Islam is - then there won’t be an Israeli Arab problem.

While we’re on the subject, you tell me what you need east Jerusalem for. Why do you need 300,000 Arabs as Israeli citizens? What’s holy there? Anything that is holy we should annex. But all the area of Shuafat, Zur Baher… I just subtracted 200,000 - and suddenly there’s no Arab problem. And, if that’s not enough for you, one day we’ll tell Umm el-Fahm that we’ll take Ariel, and they’ll take Umm el-Fahm and everybody will live in his own culture.

In other words, we have to act wisely, and this sometimes means using both a carrot and a stick. The greatest tragedy today is with the Beduin. And who’s to blame for that? You and I are. Why do we have to give child allowances to a man who has tons of kids?

You were also a big alarmist on water. Wouldn’t ceding the territories deprive us of crucial aquifers?

In any case, there’s not enough fresh water for the two populations, so it makes no difference. We understand now that we have no choice but to increase desalination.

Look, you probably drink coffee. How much does your cup of coffee cost you at your local cafe? NIS 10. That’s $2. Do you know how much water you can purify for $2? The Palestinians cannot afford this, but we can.

Why isn’t Israel implementing large-scale water purification then?

Why? Because the country has gone nuts. Why aren’t we purifying water? Because we have to. Why don’t we deal with our garbage? Because we have to. Why aren’t we taking care of education? Because we have to. But that’s another type of problem altogether. You’re asking me about geopolitics. Why we’re turning into a Third World country is another question entirely.

Aren’t you getting carried away? Israel is only 56, and has a pretty amazing track record.

We belong to the smartest and most talented nation in the world, with the most Nobel prize-winners. As such, we are capable of doing everything, and whatever we don’t accomplish has to do with the system, not with the brainpower. If you knew how many Knesset members I’ve had in my office… I’m telling you, they’re illiterate morons.

Some say that the aftermath of a post-separation war will be occupation all over again.

We won’t occupy them again. We will enter on punishment missions. As I’ve said, the minute a missile flies, we will destroy the area.

You see no problem in relocating settlers?

I do see problems. That’s why I’m not in favor of returning to the Green Line. Because we are not only faced with a Palestinian problem. We are also faced with a civil war. So I tread carefully and believe in making compromises.

Your attitude leaves no room for the unpredictable, like the massive immigration from the former Soviet Union. If you had made such predictions in 1917, Israel would never have been established.

If I had used my predictions in 1930, I would have been wrong, because I didn’t anticipate the Holocaust. If I had done the same in 1950, I would have been wrong, because I didn’t anticipate the Six Day War. If I had done it in 1970, I would have been wrong, because I didn’t know the Soviet Union would fall. A mensch tracht, unt Got lacht (Men make plans and God laughs).

Having said that, it is nevertheless irresponsible not to make plans, to ignore realities. As I told the chief rabbi: “In 1939, you waited for God and he didn’t show up.”

Let ook op de "crazy", "insane" en paniekerige toon van Arnon Soffer zelf en z'n afkeer van "bilateral"...

[E. Gidius]

Een bijzonder belangrijk, ijzingwekkend interview, Uh-Huh.

Alle eerlijke mensen die Israël nog steunen, zouden het moeten lezen.

Vooral deze passage:

Second of all, when 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it’s going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It’s going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.

While CNN has its cameras at the wall?

If we don’t kill, we will cease to exist. The only thing that concerns me is how to ensure that the boys and men who are going to have to do the killing will be able to return home to their families and be normal human beings.

[Nr.10]

Arnon Soffer = adviseur van ex-premier Sharon
Professor demografie aan de Universiteit van Haifa
De geestelijke vader van het unilaterale "disengagement plan"
Zie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_unilateral_disengagement_plan

[filosoof]

'I didn't recommend that we kill Palestinians. I said we'll have to kill them'
[Daily Edition]
Jerusalem Post - Jerusalem
Author: RUTHIE BLUM
Date: Oct 11, 2007
Start Page: 13
Section: Features
Text Word Count: 3555
Abstract (Document Summary)

"Israel is like the Titanic," [Arnon Soffer] bellows with cheerful self- assurance. "I am trying to change its course - prevent it from crashing into the iceberg - and allow it to continue safely on its journey. But up on the Tel Aviv deck, they're having a big party - a stock-market orgy. And when I try to warn them of the fast- approaching disaster, they tell me I'm being ridiculous or that I'm exaggerating."

My geostrategic assessment is that Israel is like the Titanic. I am trying to change its course - prevent it from crashing into the iceberg - and allow it to continue safely on its journey. But up on the Tel Aviv deck, they're having a big party - a stock-market orgy. And when I try to warn them of the fast-approaching disaster, they tell me I'm being ridiculous or that I'm exaggerating. It is said that intellectuals are the most ignorant of all people, and it's true, because they're off in their art galleries and don't know what's really going on around them. All they see is a mirage.

That's not necessary. Thanks to this completely crazy security fence [here he points to another map, and runs his finger along the jagged line delineating it], we have succeeded in reducing the suicide bombings to zero. This by itself is a huge accomplishment. But [former prime minister [Ariel Sharon]] Sharon's real achievement, which the public doesn't appreciate, is having included Modi'in, Betar Illit and Ma'aleh Adumim in Israel. In other words, 180,000 Jews remain within greater Jerusalem with American support.

BRON

[E. Gidius]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Nr.10

Arnon Soffer = adviseur van ex-premier Sharon
Professor demografie aan de Universiteit van Haifa

Deze man die zegt:

"So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day. If we don’t kill, we will cease to exist. "

mag in een land als Israël vrij rondlopen, de premier adviseren en aan de lopende band parlementsleden ontvangen.

Hoe zouden we dat land geen schurkenstaat kunnen noemen?

[filosoof]

Hierboven in post 4kon ik enkel een samenvatting geven, dit is het volledige artikel:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jerusalem Post

'I didn't suggest we kill Palestinians'

Oct 10, 2007 19:45 | Updated Oct 11, 2007 10:14

By RUTHIE BLUM LEIBOWITZ



Arnon Soffer arrives at our meeting armed with a stack of books and papers. Among them is a copy of an interview I conducted with him three and a half years ago ("It's the demography, stupid," May 21, 2004), and print-outs of angry responses the geostrategist from the University of Haifa says he continues to receive "from leftists in Israel and anti-Semites abroad, who took my words out of context."

The passage that aroused the most ire was as follows: "When 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it's going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day."

A lot has happened since Soffer made that statement, most notably the very withdrawal from Gaza he was referring to and so championed. In fact, the impetus for the pull-out has been attributed, at least in part, to Soffer's decades-long doomsaying about the danger the Palestinian womb posed to Israeli democracy.

The venue of our follow-up interview last month - initiated by Soffer to gloat about his "predictions having panned out perfectly" - is the Dan Accadia Hotel. Though selected due to its proximity to the IDF's National Defense College, where Soffer lectures and serves as head of research, it couldn't be a more ironic location. It was here, after all, that former prime minister Ariel Sharon announced his disengagement plan to the Herzliya Conference.

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While nothing seems to be the same since that fateful day in December 2003, Soffer's convictions haven't budged an iota. He still holds a deep - what critics might call delusional - devotion to the notion that exiting Palestinian-populated territories is the key to fending off the country's otherwise destined demise. Well, that, and a fence to keep a majority of settlers in and a flow of inevitable Arab intruders out.

"Israel is like the Titanic," Soffer bellows with cheerful self-assurance. "I am trying to change its course - prevent it from crashing into the iceberg - and allow it to continue safely on its journey. But up on the Tel Aviv deck, they're having a big party - a stock-market orgy. And when I try to warn them of the fast-approaching disaster, they tell me I'm being ridiculous or that I'm exaggerating."

To prove his point, Soffer repeatedly whips out maps to back up his pronouncements, many of which sound purposefully outrageous, such as: "Jerusalem is no longer Jewish-Zionist," and "Iran is so weak and vulnerable that it's unbelievable."

And, in spite of his speaking in absolutes, Soffer does deign to concede that he's changed his mind about a couple of issues: the Jordan Valley and the Philadelphi Corridor. He no longer supports relinquishing the former, and now believes the latter has to be repossessed.

No small matter, but no matter. The 71-year-old father of four and grandfather of eight still supports every other aspect of what he considers to be a "brilliant maneuver" by Sharon to guarantee a Jewish majority in Israel, with the blessing of the United States.

Challenged, as he was during our previous interview, on Israel's willingness to do what he prescribes is necessary in the war against Palestinian aggression - i.e. put a bullet in the head of anyone who tries to climb over the security fence - Soffer shrugs. "If we don't," he reiterates, "We'll cease to exist."

In our previous interview, you made many assertions about what could and should be expected to happen following the disengagement from Gaza. You claim now that everything has played out the way you said it would.

Yes. I said, "The pressure at the border will be awful. It's going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill."

That statement caused a huge stir at the time, and it's amazing to see how many dozens of angry, ignorant responses I continue to receive from leftists in Israel and anti-Semites abroad, who took my words out of context. I didn't recommend that we kill Palestinians. I said we'll have to kill them.

I was right about mounting demographic pressures. I am also entitled to defend myself and my country. So today, I would update the headline you gave my last interview and call this one: "It's the demography and anti-Semitism, stupid."

What about answering critics from the Right, who would argue that in spite of incessant Kassam attacks on Sderot and kibbutzim in the Negev, Israel has barely reacted at all, let alone by "killing, killing and killing"?

Since before the withdrawal from Gaza, I have been saying that we have to fire missiles at anyone who fires them at us; we haven't been doing that enough.

During our last interview, I asked you whether - with CNN cameras pointing at the security fence - Israel would be prepared to retaliate in the event of missile fire. Your response was: "If we don't kill, we will cease to exist."

We are living in a 100-year period of terrorism, and we have another 100 years of terrorism ahead of us. We will forever be forced to live by the sword. We are not wanted in the Middle East, which is why we will have to continue to fight.

The purpose of disengagement was not to put an end to terrorism or Kassam fire. Its purpose was to stop being responsible for a million and a half Arabs who continue to multiply in conditions of poverty and madness. I am thrilled that we are out of there. The Kassams do not constitute a strategic threat, and the Palestinians will get the blow they deserve - though we do have to be cautious, because the situation is complex.

There are many members of the Knesset, and even the government, who continue to consider us responsible for what goes on in Gaza, as the debate over the right response to the Kassams indicates.

Our government has woken up. The only ones making noise are leftists and so-called human rights lawyers who only care about the well-being of cats, dogs and Palestinians, but never about Jews.



(Continued from page 1 of 4 )



It is true, however, that we are faced with a dilemma on how to respond, which is part of the delicate game we have to play.

But, as I said then and say now, the demographic pressure is only growing in Gaza. Wisely, through disengagement, the government was trying to direct that pressure to Egypt-the-horrible, from where arms and missiles flow into Gaza. This way, Egypt would have to deal with it, not us. And that's what we're doing.

Hasn't the flow of arms and missiles from Egypt into Gaza been detrimental to Israel? Isn't Egypt's control of the tunnels allowing for an al-Qaida state to be blossoming there? Doesn't all of this actually endanger Israel?

Al-Qaida's presence in Gaza endangers both Israel and Egypt, but first and foremost it endangers Egypt. The Egyptians will learn this the hard way, because they know full well what is being smuggled into Gaza.

But Israel gave Egypt control over that border.

That's true, but let me ask you this: What were the alternatives? They were either for us to be responsible for Gaza or for them to be. Let them wrack their brains over it. Let them be stuck with the consequences.

But are they "wracking their brains over it"? Are they "stuck with the consequences"?

Yes, because when the arms from el-Arish reach Rafah, some go to Nueiba and Sharm e-Sheikh, where there are suicide bombers. Indeed, there are al-Qaida cells throughout the Sinai. We've seen how much blood has been spilled there over the past few years. Egypt is paying for that and will continue to pay for it.

When you refer to Egypt, you are talking about President Hosni Mubarak. But what about the Muslim Brotherhood - a powerful and spreading force there?

Every morning, when I read the papers and see that Jordanian King Abdullah II is healthy and Mubarak is still alive, I know we've earned another day. I live with the sense that one day we will wake up to the news of a coup in Jordan and Egypt. And woe is the day when insane Islam takes over those two countries. In other words, in spite of everything he does, Mubarak is still among our friends. He's also got problems.

So, you have said that there is a demographic pressure cooker; that Israel will have to live by the sword for at least another 100 years; and that when Mubarak and Abdullah die, we're in for worse trouble. Is your response to all of this that Israel needs to keep withdrawing from territory? And if so, then what?

My geostrategic assessment is that Israel is like the Titanic. I am trying to change its course - prevent it from crashing into the iceberg - and allow it to continue safely on its journey. But up on the Tel Aviv deck, they're having a big party - a stock-market orgy. And when I try to warn them of the fast-approaching disaster, they tell me I'm being ridiculous or that I'm exaggerating. It is said that intellectuals are the most ignorant of all people, and it's true, because they're off in their art galleries and don't know what's really going on around them. All they see is a mirage.

Look [he takes out a population map of Israel]: First of all, the Israeli Arabs are enclosing the country from the Upper Galilee all the way around. And here in the center, there is the rich, cynical, cosmopolitan "state of Tel Aviv."

As for the Arabs of the South: They're the bridge between Gaza and Judea-Samaria. And I want to tell you, if we fail to keep that bridge closed, Katyushas will be launched from Kalkilya to Tel Aviv - right onto the Stock Exchange. Then the party will be over.

What has to be done to keep that bridge closed?

I've written a whole booklet on what we have to do to save the State of Israel. Yes, to save it. This "state of Tel Aviv" - this hermetically sealed state - has to be weakened and fast in order to save Jerusalem, which is no longer Jewish-Zionist. As we speak, Jerusalem - a mere 60 kilometers from Tel Aviv - is being betrayed by the 220,000 Jews who ran away from it. It is a national disaster.

How can Tel Aviv be "weakened"?

The government has to decide to close it for the next five years.

Not allowing people to move there sounds pretty totalitarian.

No, I'm not saying we should do what Stalin did. I'm for democracy. What I'm saying is that the government should announce that for the next several years not a single agora of the state budget goes to Gush Dan [greater Tel Aviv]. All money for roads and railways has to go to the periphery. All construction in the center has to cease, while increasing construction in Ma'aleh Adumim and Jerusalem. And, after that, in the Negev. People will be able to live outside Tel Aviv and commute to work and recreation by train. Believe me, once there are half a million Israelis living in Beersheba, there will be plenty of hoity-toity trendy restaurants there, too.

As someone so concerned about demography, how do you see the Beduin of the Negev fitting into this?

If half a million Jews end up living in Beersheba - today, there are 200,000 - it will develop and spread out, reaching the Beduin-populated areas. The Beduin will benefit by becoming part of the larger melting pot of Beersheba.

If the Beduin can become part of the larger melting pot of Beersheba, why can't the Palestinians become part of the larger melting pot of Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem?

Good question. As long as the entire Israeli-Arab population, including the Beduin, comes to 1.4 million, in a country of seven million total, Jews have a 70-80 percent majority.

In spite of Arab birthrates?
Yes, because Jewish birthrates are on the
rise, and Arab birthrates are on the decline. That's why there's no danger inside Israel. But once you add the territories, Jews and Arabs are in a demographic tie.

Because of the withdrawal from Gaza, today Jews make up 60% of the Israeli population and Arabs only 40%. If we we wait 20 years, the tie will return.

Is this why you favor further withdrawals? If Israel returns to the '67 borders - guaranteeing a clear Jewish majority - what then?

Continued
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(Continued from page 2 of 4 )



That's not necessary. Thanks to this completely crazy security fence [here he points to another map, and runs his finger along the jagged line delineating it], we have succeeded in reducing the suicide bombings to zero. This by itself is a huge accomplishment. But [former prime minister Ariel] Sharon's real achievement, which the public doesn't appreciate, is having included Modi'in, Betar Illit and Ma'aleh Adumim in Israel. In other words, 180,000 Jews remain within greater Jerusalem with American support.

Today there are 270,000 settlers in the territories, and their numbers are increasing, through natural growth and due to Bnei Akiva members moving there. Through Sharon's cleverness, Jerusalem remains in Israel and 210,000 settlers are within the fence. Only 60,000 remain outside. In other words, 86% of the settlers are at home. This is an unbelievable victory.

So, now you're asking me - and rightly so - whether we have to evacuate the rest of the territories. Since our last interview, I have changed my mind about the Jordan Valley. I said then that we were probably going to have to relinquish it. I had been persuaded that there was no longer an eastern-front threat, now that Iraq had become friendly, that Syria was rusty and that our strategic peace with Jordan was sound. But then, suddenly, in November 2005, there was a suicide attack in Amman, which showed that there are al-Qaida cells there.

I also said that we would have to hold on to the Philadelphi Corridor in order to prevent an Egyptian-Gazan connection. Now, if we put our hands to our hearts, we have to admit that the IDF failed to secure Philadelphi - a 200-meter wide and 10-kilometer long area, on one side of which is a terrible country like Egypt, and on the other side of which is Iran. According to reliable sources, Iran was already in Gaza 10 months before disengagement. Why am I bringing this up in connection with the Jordan Valley? [President of the Council on Foreign Relations] Richard Haass, who was director of policy planning for the US State Department at the time, told me personally: "We'll allow Israel to establish a 'Philadelphi Corridor' in the Jordan Valley, to guarantee the neutralization and demilitarization of Judea and Samaria."

But because we failed to secure Philadelphi in Gaza, of course we would also fail in the Jordan Valley.

Aren't you being unfair to the IDF? Isn't it the policy that failed?

Look, when England sent the British army to fight Gallipoli [in World War I], the policy was to win. The same applies here.

But the policy in this case was to give Egypt control over the Philadelphi Corridor and the tunnels. It was a political deal between Israel and Egypt.

No. It's because the IDF failed that we made that deal. That's why today I think we have to retain control of both the Philadelphi Corridor and the Jordan Valley.

And if we return to Philadelphi, it will no longer be a mere 200 meters. It will have to be widened at the expense of the refugee camps in Rafah, which we will have to destroy, destroy and destroy.

You just said that the beauty of Sharon's disengagement plan was that America was behind it. But the United States would support neither an Israeli return to the Philadelphi Corridor nor Israel's retaining of the Jordan Valley.

You're right. But my gut feeling is that Bush is going to attack Iran before he finishes his term in office.

Recently, when I told members of the [Israeli] government that we will have to hold on to the Jordan Valley, they all said, "It's too late."

I say that when it comes to our security, there's no such thing as "too late."

In the meantime, we have no choice but to keep Hamas out through military operations like Defensive Shield.

What about Fatah? Is it any less bent on destroying Israel than Hamas?

No. But neither are Israeli Arabs any different in that respect. No Palestinian wants us here. No Muslim wants us here. No Arab wants us here.

Not even Christian Arabs?

[He guffaws sarcastically.] Are there any of those left in the Middle East? They're absconding! They, who used to be the founding fathers of pan-Arab nationalism, have become victims of radical Islam.

Returning to Iran, you believe that demographic imbalance is Israel's greatest danger in the long term. But isn't Iran's soon-to-be nuclear capability a much more immediate and comprehensive threat?

Personally, I don't believe that if Iran succeeds in developing a nuclear weapon, it will actually use it. Even the most suicidal of those nuts understands that if even a single missile is launched in Israel's direction, it will provide the opportunity for Israel or for America to execute the strike we're all waiting for.

Are you saying that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad doesn't mean what he says about wiping Israel off the map?

Everything that madman says indicates he is hysterical.

Hitler was also hysterical, but that didn't prevent him from carrying out his plan.

Hitler was hysterical, but in this case, Iran is closed off 360 degrees by the "cowboy" America. I want to tell you: Two missiles on the Iranian islands of Karaj and Siri, and Iran's entire oil revenue drops from $60 billion to zero. Iran is so weak and vulnerable that it's unbelievable.

You're saying that Iran does not constitute a threat.

That's right. I think it's much ado about nothing.

So, why would Bush strike before leaving office?

Ahhh... great question. The answer is that I have been speaking as an Israeli, and Iran won't jeopardize its interests so totally just in order to harm us. Furthermore, if it does direct a nuclear bomb at Israel, it would destroy Jerusalem and the Arabs they care about. It's not logical. Not only that. The second strike would come from us and the free world, and then there would be no more Iran. Iran won't commit suicide.

But Bush's considerations are a different story. The world's superpower cannot accept that 2/3 of the world's oil is in the hands of a crazy person like Ahmadinejad.

Continued
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(Continued from page 3 of 4 )



Your geostrategic assessments don't seem to take religion into account - global Islam as a genuine ideology on the one hand, and the Jewish belief in the right to the Land of Israel on the other. You even speak of Jerusalem from a demographic perspective, rather than its being the heart of the Jewish homeland.

I definitely do take global Islam into account, as I do the Jewish people's affinity for Jerusalem. That is why I call Tel Aviv the enemy that betrayed it.

Are you saying that by wanting to live in Tel Aviv, Israelis have brought about the necessity to divide Israel's capital?

Right you are.

But a person can love Jerusalem without wanting to live there. If, as you agreed, people can't be forced by the government to reside in a particular place, what are you suggesting - other than territorial withdrawal?

The first thing I'd do is finish the fast train line to Jerusalem. Next, I'd move the IDF Spokesman's Office, Army Radio, the defense colleges and the offices of the General Staff there, as well as all government industries. Finally, I'd give subsidies for development and hi-tech.

Still, you favor further territorial withdrawals.

I'm originally a Mapainik, which means I'm a pragmatist. Today, I'm in the center, which is why both the Left and the Right attack me. The point is that our young people are leaving the country and we are an island in a sea of Middle Eastern countries. This is why we have to fortify ourselves with a fence. Then, whoever tries to cross it gets a bullet to the head.

But, while Israel is prepared to complete the fence, it is not keen on giving anyone a bullet to the head.

Well, then, we'll cease to exist.






http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1191257273616

Are you saying that by wanting to live in Tel Aviv, Israelis have brought about the necessity to divide Israel's capital?

Still, you favor further territorial withdrawals.

Zo is 't artikel volledig en kan op meer geoordeeld worden dan op uit hun verband gerukte zinnen.

(Dit wil niet zeggen dat ik akkoord ga met A. Soffer!!)

[filosoof]

As someone so concerned about demography, how do you see the Beduin of the Negev fitting into this?

If half a million Jews end up living in Beersheba - today, there are 200,000 - it will develop and spread out, reaching the Beduin-populated areas. The Beduin will benefit by becoming part of the larger melting pot of Beersheba.

If the Beduin can become part of the larger melting pot of Beersheba, why can't the Palestinians become part of the larger melting pot of Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem?
Good question. As long as the entire Israeli-Arab population, including the Beduin, comes to 1.4 million, in a country of seven million total, Jews have a 70-80 percent majority.

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Soffer in JP

my gut feeling is that Bush is going to attack Iran before he finishes his term in office.

Pal ernaast dus, meneer Soffer...
.....
Opdeling van Jeruzalem, territoriale terugtrekking en "melting pot Israel"

E.Gidius, graag je commentaar hierbij...

[Jozef Ostyn]

Deze kerel gelooft in ieder geval dat Gaza nog een enorme bevolkingsexplosie te wachten staat want hij spreekt van een bevolking van 2,5 miljoen terwijl er nu 1,5 miljoen leven.

[E. Gidius]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door filosoof

E.Gidius, graag je commentaar hierbij...

Deze Soffer, een graag geziene gast in de hoogste politieke kringen van Israël, herhaalt dus:

[Soffer:] This is why we have to fortify ourselves with a fence. Then, whoever tries to cross it gets a bullet to the head.

[Journalist:] But, while Israel is prepared to complete the fence, it is not keen on giving anyone a bullet to the head.

[Soffer:] Well, then, we'll cease to exist.

Zelden is de zionistische bloeddorst zo openlijk, schaamteloos en ideologisch gestructureerd uiteengezet (en verklaard).

[Gilette]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door E. Gidius

Deze Soffer, een graag geziene gast in de hoogste politieke kringen van Israël, herhaalt dus:



Zelden is de zionistische bloeddorst zo openlijk, schaamteloos en ideologisch gestructureerd uiteengezet (en verklaard).

Een joods-belanger in het kwadraat. In Israel leggen ze geen cordons ...

[Mahalingam]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jozef Ostyn

Deze kerel gelooft in ieder geval dat Gaza nog een enorme bevolkingsexplosie te wachten staat want hij spreekt van een bevolking van 2,5 miljoen terwijl er nu 1,5 miljoen leven.

*knip*
En dat is precies wat er in Gaza gebeurt: per vrouw komen er statistisch gezien 6 kinderen op de wereld. Wat moeten die kinderen eten? Hebben ze een dak boven hun hoofd? hebben ze later werk? Nee hoor, maak je geen zorgen: Allah zal voor ze zorgen. In dit geval Allah in de gedaante van massive westerse hulp.
Welk deel van de bevolking was voor het conflict totaal afhankelijk van hulp en import van goederen van buiten Gaza? En is er enige indicatie dat in de toekomst een groter deel van de bevolking zijn eigen broek zal (kunnen) ophouden?
Dus het is een redelijke aanname dat over 10 jaar de bevolking is gegroeid van 1,5 naar 2,5 miljoen. Over 1 generatie van nu zal de bevolking vervijfvoudigd zijn.
In Algerije was er ook na de dekolonisatie een bevolkingsexplosie. Toen zijn er 250.000 vermoord bij de interne intifada door Islamisten van de Religie van de Dood. Herinner je je nog de vele demonstraties voor vrede in Algerije? Over het stoppen van de massamoord op Algerijnen?
Nu is in heel Noord-Afrika het geboortecijfer gedaald naar een 2,2 a 2,4 en blijft dalen.

Gelieve racistische uitspattingen achterwege te laten.

[Nr.10]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Mahalingam

*knip*
En dat is precies wat er in Gaza gebeurt: per vrouw komen er statistisch gezien 6 kinderen op de wereld. Wat moeten die kinderen eten? Hebben ze een dak boven hun hoofd? hebben ze later werk? Nee hoor, maak je geen zorgen: Allah zal voor ze zorgen. In dit geval Allah in de gedaante van massive westerse hulp.
Welk deel van de bevolking was voor het conflict totaal afhankelijk van hulp en import van goederen van buiten Gaza? En is er enige indicatie dat in de toekomst een groter deel van de bevolking zijn eigen broek zal (kunnen) ophouden?
Dus het is een redelijke aanname dat over 10 jaar de bevolking is gegroeid van 1,5 naar 2,5 miljoen. Over 1 generatie van nu zal de bevolking vervijfvoudigd zijn.
In Algerije was er ook na de dekolonisatie een bevolkingsexplosie. Toen zijn er 250.000 vermoord bij de interne intifada door Islamisten van de Religie van de Dood. Herinner je je nog de vele demonstraties voor vrede in Algerije? Over het stoppen van de massamoord op Algerijnen?
Nu is in heel Noord-Afrika het geboortecijfer gedaald naar een 2,2 a 2,4 en blijft dalen.

Uit het tweede interview met Soffer (post zes/filosoof).

Arnon Soffer: Professor demografie aan de Universiteit van Haifa.
Geestelijke vader van het unilaterale "disengagement plan".
(plan uitgevoerd door ex-premier Sharon)

The purpose of disengagement was not to put an end to terrorism or Kassam fire.
Its purpose was to stop being responsible for a million and a half Arabs who
continue to multiply in conditions of poverty and madness.

Hmm, wie keek vandaag naar Vranckx?
Gaza hangt voor 80% van zijn voedselvoorraad af van externe donoren.
Gaza is het dichtstbevolkte gebied ter wereld.
Straatarm.

En 12 van je kinderen kwijtspelen ...
Met 8 andere de tractor op.
En onderdak zoeken bij familie ...

[Nr.10]

Inwoners (Israelisch) gekoloniseerde gebieden = 7.112.359 (2008[CIA World Factbook])

• 76,0% joods
• 16,6% moslim
• 2,1% christen
• 1,7% druus

(inclusief Israëlische burgers in Oost-Jeruzalem en de bezette gebieden)

[fernand]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Mahalingam

*knip*
En dat is precies wat er in Gaza gebeurt: per vrouw komen er statistisch gezien 6 kinderen op de wereld. Wat moeten die kinderen eten? Hebben ze een dak boven hun hoofd? hebben ze later werk? Nee hoor, maak je geen zorgen: Allah zal voor ze zorgen. In dit geval Allah in de gedaante van massive westerse hulp.
Welk deel van de bevolking was voor het conflict totaal afhankelijk van hulp en import van goederen van buiten Gaza? En is er enige indicatie dat in de toekomst een groter deel van de bevolking zijn eigen broek zal (kunnen) ophouden?
Dus het is een redelijke aanname dat over 10 jaar de bevolking is gegroeid van 1,5 naar 2,5 miljoen. Over 1 generatie van nu zal de bevolking vervijfvoudigd zijn.
In Algerije was er ook na de dekolonisatie een bevolkingsexplosie. Toen zijn er 250.000 vermoord bij de interne intifada door Islamisten van de Religie van de Dood. Herinner je je nog de vele demonstraties voor vrede in Algerije? Over het stoppen van de massamoord op Algerijnen?
Nu is in heel Noord-Afrika het geboortecijfer gedaald naar een 2,2 a 2,4 en blijft dalen.

dit probleem doet zich voor in alle ontwikkelingslanden.
en wie heeft er winst bij deze situatie? De NGO. zij zamelen geld in voor "hulp" aan deze mensen. 80 �* 90 % van de gelden blijven hangen aan de organisatie. de armen krijgen de overige 10 %, en moeten dan nog de producten kopen van de donnorlanden.
de artsen leren er hun beroep, en de ontwikkelingssamenwerkers verdienen er op een gemakkelijke manier hun boterham. en de onozele europeaan betaald voor de instanthouding en voor zijn eigen ondergang. alleen het kapitaal wordt steeds rijker op de rug van de arme.

[Nr.10]

Inwoners Palestijnse gebieden

• Gaza-strook = 1.482.405 [CIA World Factbook]
• Westelijke Jordaanoever = (wiki) In december 2007 hield de Palestijnse autoriteit een volkstelling, hieruit bleek dat er op de Westelijke Jordaanoever inclusief Oost-Jerusalem 2.345.000 Palestijnen woonden - dat was een verdubbeling ten opzichte van 10 jaar daarvoor.[1] Op de Westelijke Jordaanoever wonen ook nog 275.000 Israëlische kolonisten in nederzettingen, in Oost-Jerusalem wonen 200.000 Israëliers.

[Flippend Rund]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jozef Ostyn

Deze kerel gelooft in ieder geval dat Gaza nog een enorme bevolkingsexplosie te wachten staat want hij spreekt van een bevolking van 2,5 miljoen terwijl er nu 1,5 miljoen leven.

Wanneer alle infrastructuur is platgebombardeerd, en je hebt geen radio, tv of elektriciteit, dan is het enig overblijvend vertier van vroeg te gaan slapen en nog meer Palestijntjes te maken.

En de laatste voorbehoedsmiddelen zijn gisteren in de vlammen opgegaan, geloof ik.

Wanneer gaan die domme Israeli's dat eens snappen.

[Flippend Rund]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door E. Gidius

Deze man die zegt:

"So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day. If we don’t kill, we will cease to exist. "

mag in een land als Israël vrij rondlopen, de premier adviseren en aan de lopende band parlementsleden ontvangen.

Hoe zouden we dat land geen schurkenstaat kunnen noemen?

Als dat allemaal waar is, dan loopt Israel onderhand vol moordenaars. En op termijn, zal deze cultuur van geweld zich keren tegen de eigen bevolking en het land aantasten van binnenuit, dat is onvermijdelijk. Uiteindelijk zijn dit de wetten van de karma.

[Nr.10]

Even rekenen: Palestina

joods
7.112.359 x 76% joods = 5.405.393 joods in Isreal

niet-joods
7.112.359 - 5.405.393 = 1.706.966 niet-joods in Isreal
1.482.405 in de Gaza-strook
2.345.000 op de Westelijke Jordaanoever
Totaal niet-joods 5.534.371

5.405.393 joods <==> 5.534.371 niet-joods

Is dat niet de sleutel?
Zionisme wil zeggen: eigen staat voor de joden.
Kan niet zonder getalsmeerderheid.

[E. Gidius]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Flippend Rund

Als dat allemaal waar is, dan loopt Israel onderhand vol moordenaars.

Dat weet ik niet. Maar als we even afstand doen van de concrete situatie, kunnen we ons bijvoorbeeld afvragen wat in België zou gebeuren met een man die zegt (én herhaalt):

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Arnon Soffer

"So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day. If we don’t kill, we will cease to exist. "

Zou die bijvoorbeeld premier Van Rompuy kunnen adviseren, en de vader worden van een diepgaande staatshervorming?

Of hadden we hem gecordoniseerd? Of wellicht opgesloten in Kortenberg?

[Flippend Rund]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door E. Gidius

Dat weet ik niet. Maar als we even afstand doen van de concrete situatie, kunnen we ons bijvoorbeeld afvragen wat in België zou gebeuren met een man die zegt (én herhaalt):



Zou die bijvoorbeeld premier Van Rompuy kunnen adviseren, en de vader worden van een diepgaande staatshervorming?

Of hadden we hem gecordoniseerd? Of wellicht opgesloten in Kortenberg?

Zou jij onder zulke mensen willen leven?