wat zijn de ideeen van che over media?

het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en inzet
hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg revolutionair, want
ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet iemand hier misschien meer
over? of een link?

"Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en inzet
> hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg revolutionair,
> want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet iemand hier misschien
> meer over? of een link?
>

Che had nauwelijks ideeen.

Orac wrote:
> "Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en inzet
>> hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg revolutionair,
>> want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet iemand hier misschien
>> meer over? of een link?
>>
>
> Che had nauwelijks ideeen.
>
>

Ik krijg het idee dat jij daar geen idee van hebt.

Als als men met media doelt op (school)boeken, metname
geschiedenisboeken en wetenschappelijke vakken... ja goed idee.

Maar schapen in hun woonkamer benaderen via de kijkdoos?... Nah.
Liever niet.


JayJBee
"Revolution will not be televised, will not be televised, wil not be...
if telefised."

"JayJBee" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Orac wrote:
>> "Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en
>>> inzet hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg
>>> revolutionair, want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet iemand
>>> hier misschien meer over? of een link?
>>>
>>
>> Che had nauwelijks ideeen.
>
> Ik krijg het idee dat jij daar geen idee van hebt.
>
> Als als men met media doelt op (school)boeken, metname geschiedenisboeken
> en wetenschappelijke vakken... ja goed idee.
>
> Maar schapen in hun woonkamer benaderen via de kijkdoos?... Nah.
> Liever niet.
>

Che is een opgeklopt reclamesymbool die de meeste indruk heeft gemaakt door
middel van een wereldberoemde foto.

Orac wrote:
> "JayJBee" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> Orac wrote:
>>> "Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en
>>>> inzet hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg
>>>> revolutionair, want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet iemand
>>>> hier misschien meer over? of een link?
>>>>
>>> Che had nauwelijks ideeen.
>> Ik krijg het idee dat jij daar geen idee van hebt.
>>
>> Als als men met media doelt op (school)boeken, metname geschiedenisboeken
>> en wetenschappelijke vakken... ja goed idee.
>>
>> Maar schapen in hun woonkamer benaderen via de kijkdoos?... Nah.
>> Liever niet.
>>
>
> Che is een opgeklopt reclamesymbool die de meeste indruk heeft gemaakt door
> middel van een wereldberoemde foto.


Doe je huiswerk beter dan voorkom je gelul out je nek.

Ik wil je ook wel meegeven dat hij dat gezicht van 'de markt economie'
heeft gekregen. Die houden het wel vaker bij logo's en symbolen.

Hoe bedoel je? Hoor ik je al vragen
Of het makkelijkere: ''Je bazelt weer onbegrijpelijke taal'
Wel... goed. Ik licht me een keertje toe.

Zolang jij je laat 'hypnotiseren' (voorliegen) door een afbeeldinkje en
repetetive 'mantra's' (kapitalistische anti-sociaale samenleving
propaganda).


JayJBee
"Voordat je zover bent en we kunnen beginnen met het terugvinden van
Che-soortgenoten (post 1868 volkshelden) zoals bijvoorbeeld 'Amilcar
Cabral'"

"JayJBee" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Orac wrote:
>> "JayJBee" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Orac wrote:
>>>> "Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en
>>>>> inzet hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg
>>>>> revolutionair, want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet
>>>>> iemand hier misschien meer over? of een link?
>>>>>
>>>> Che had nauwelijks ideeen.
>>> Ik krijg het idee dat jij daar geen idee van hebt.
>>>
>>> Als als men met media doelt op (school)boeken, metname
>>> geschiedenisboeken en wetenschappelijke vakken... ja goed idee.
>>>
>>> Maar schapen in hun woonkamer benaderen via de kijkdoos?... Nah.
>>> Liever niet.
>>>
>>
>> Che is een opgeklopt reclamesymbool die de meeste indruk heeft gemaakt
>> door middel van een wereldberoemde foto.
>
>
> Doe je huiswerk beter dan voorkom je gelul out je nek.

Sorry hoor, ik wilde jouw variant op Jezus niet beledigen.

Orac wrote:
> "JayJBee" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> Orac wrote:
>>> "JayJBee" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Orac wrote:
>>>>> "Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en
>>>>>> inzet hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg
>>>>>> revolutionair, want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet
>>>>>> iemand hier misschien meer over? of een link?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Che had nauwelijks ideeen.
>>>> Ik krijg het idee dat jij daar geen idee van hebt.
>>>>
>>>> Als als men met media doelt op (school)boeken, metname
>>>> geschiedenisboeken en wetenschappelijke vakken... ja goed idee.
>>>>
>>>> Maar schapen in hun woonkamer benaderen via de kijkdoos?... Nah.
>>>> Liever niet.
>>>>
>>> Che is een opgeklopt reclamesymbool die de meeste indruk heeft gemaakt
>>> door middel van een wereldberoemde foto.
>>
>> Doe je huiswerk beter dan voorkom je gelul out je nek.
>
> Sorry hoor, ik wilde jouw variant op Jezus niet beledigen.

Voila... je weet beter.

Je referentiekader mbt Che klopt iig...


JayJBee
"En nu Amilcar Cabral Googlen, hups!"

Hij heeft niet eens een e-mail adres!!

"Orac" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en
>> inzet hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg
>> revolutionair, want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet iemand
>> hier misschien meer over? of een link?
>>
>
> Che had nauwelijks ideeen.
>

"Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en inzet
> hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg revolutionair,
> want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet iemand hier misschien
> meer over? of een link?

Afgaande op al die posters over hem, waarop hij vervaarlijik staat afgebeeld
met zijn onafscheidelijke kalasnikow, hoef je niet ver te zoeken inzake zijn
ideeen.

d/colonel

de colonel wrote:
> "Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en inzet
>> hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg revolutionair,
>> want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet iemand hier misschien
>> meer over? of een link?
>
> Afgaande op al die posters over hem, waarop hij vervaarlijik staat afgebeeld
> met zijn onafscheidelijke kalasnikow, hoef je niet ver te zoeken inzake zijn
> ideeen.

de colonel pleegt liever verzet met zijn pijpmondje?


JayJBee
"Ik denk t ook niet."

>
> d/colonel
>
>

"Viola" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en
> inzet hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg
> revolutionair, want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet
> iemand hier misschien meer over? of een link?
>
>

http://seekerblog.com/archives/20060...ra-media-myth/
"Che Guevara is a testament to the power of a media symbol. As a purely
military force he was negligible. As an organizing force and agitator of
Bolivians he was an abject failure. But as an international Marxist symbol
and poster-boy Che was eminently successful. Millions of people have worn
his likeness on a T-shirt believing that he was a brilliant revolutionary
and guerilla when in fact he was neither.
enz.. enz..."

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/...th-making.html

K
--
Look out for the Yaldabaoth.

MK wrote:
> "Viola" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en
>> inzet hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg
>> revolutionair, want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet
>> iemand hier misschien meer over? of een link?
>>
>>
>
> http://seekerblog.com/archives/20060...ra-media-myth/
> "Che Guevara is a testament to the power of a media symbol. As a purely
> military force he was negligible. As an organizing force and agitator of
> Bolivians he was an abject failure. But as an international Marxist symbol
> and poster-boy Che was eminently successful. Millions of people have worn
> his likeness on a T-shirt believing that he was a brilliant revolutionary
> and guerilla when in fact he was neither.
> enz.. enz..."

Het is 'de markt' die hij opponeerde.

Het was 'de markt' die het van punkers en andere soortgelijke sociale
bewegingen over nam (in eerste instantie geitenwollensokken achter
marktkraampjes op protestacties, die steeds meer op vestivalletjes
gingen lijken)

Het is 'de markt' die je deze bullshit verkoopt.

>
> http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/...th-making.html


JayJBee
"Don't buy it!"

>
> K

"de colonel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Viola" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> het scheen dat Che heel uitgesproken ideeen had over nieuwe media en
>> inzet hiervan, en dat alleen al vind ik voor een communist erg
>> revolutionair, want ik vraag me af welke ideeen dat zijn... weet iemand
>> hier misschien meer over? of een link?
>
> Afgaande op al die posters over hem, waarop hij vervaarlijik staat
> afgebeeld met zijn onafscheidelijke kalasnikow, hoef je niet ver te zoeken
> inzake zijn ideeen.
>

jeeetje, wat een minder-intelligente-antwoorden.

in "the poverty of money" vond ik nog dit:

6.2. Che Gue6ara and the question of money

During 1963-1965, there was a great economic

debate in Cuba with contributions from overseas.

The debate concentrated on whether work ought

to be encouraged by moral or material incentives

and whether the state ought to adhere to a centralised

budgetary system or allow enterprises

financial autonomy. Distinctive positions on these

issues related to different interpretations of

Marx's concept and law of value and different

visions of socialist planning. The debaters argued

about whether production by the state constituted

production of 'commodities'. As with ecological

economics, superficially the issue for the socialist

revolutionaries was not so much where are we

going, but how will we get there? In this debate

Major Alberto Mora, Cuban Minister of Foreign

Trade, and Carlos Rafael Rodri´guez, Director of

the National Institute of Agrarian Reform were

supported by the French economist Charles Bettleheim

in opposition to Che Guevara, Director of

the Ministry of Industries.5

Che (1987a, pp. 204-205) quoted from Marx in

defence of his position; Che' s 'revolutionary humanism'

fundamentally distinguished his perspective

from that of his opponents (Lowy, 1973).

Following Marx, Che (see Lowy, 1973) had decided

that freedom meant freedom from the forces

of the capitalist market, freedom from alienation,

the freedom to directly control and plan human

life.

While acknowledging that investment must take

account of non-economic factors, Mora (in Lowy

(1973) pp. 46-7) suggested that Marx's law of

value must not be neglected but, rather, found its

most perfect expression under socialism! This position

was not supported by Marx's work, Mora's

definition of value being a rather conventional

'relation between limited available resources and

man's (sic) increasing wants'. Furthermore, Mora

argued that state enterprises should be financially

autonomous, utilise business accounting methods

of economic calculation, and produce commodities

for profits. The point made by Bettleheim

(1968, p. 190) was that 'if we try to apply forms of

organisation and forms of circulation to the

(lower) level of development attained by the productive

forces, we shall achieve only a great deal

of waste.' In his commentary on the discussion,

Lowy (1973) argued that without a market it was

unclear what people wanted.

5 The main English sources for this discussion are various

works by Che Guevara (1987a, 1987b, 1991) and the commentaries

in Lowy (1973) and Tablada (1989).

A. Nelson : Ecological Economics 36 (2001) 499-511 509

In opposition to Mora and his supporters, Guevara

followed Marx, stating that 'value' was related

to abstract labour, not to wants and

environmental resources. He argued that in as

much as the state sector of the economy approximated

a single unit and transfers of products

between state factories were all supervised under

one budgetary finance system, these products did

not constitute commodities. Administered prices

were not market prices nor could they be associated

with Marx's law of value. This reasoning was

applied to transactions between the private and

state sectors too. For Che, the plan ought not

mimic market forces; planning was the very process

which enabled noneconomic factors to be

taken into account and, being a conscious act, led

away from the law of value. Guevara, 1987b

wanted 'to eliminate as vigorously as possible the

old categories, including the market, money, and,

therefore the lever of material interest - or, to

put it better,' he wrote, 'to eliminate the conditions

for their existence'. Che (1987a, pp. 214,

229) believed that 'the development of consciousness

can advance ahead of the particular state of

the productive forces in any given country'. Mandel

(Lowy, 1973) supported Che; planning ought

to minimise both the working of the law of value

and the commodity character of the state workers'

product. Che distinguished himself from Stalinist

bureaucratic planning and opposed the competitive

aspects of the Yugoslavian model. For Che

and Mandel, centralised budgetary planning

would minimise expensive bureaucratic

management.

The other main question in this debate focused

on the relative merits of material and moral incentives.

Not surprisingly, Che Guevara was the protagonist

for encouraging work through moral

incentives, while his opponents argued that monetary

incentives were absolutely necessary. Guevara,

1991 (in Lowy, 1973) argued that use of

capitalism's 'fetishes' or 'the worn-out weapons

left by capitalism' (i.e. profit, material incentives

and so on) would result in a 'dead end', not in

communism; what was necessary was a new attitude,

a sense of social duty, a collectivist consciousness,

a new 'man'. He was pragmatic

enough to recognise that such changes do not

occur overnight. One policy involved phasing out

material incentives and focusing social benefits on

exemplary workers in social[ist] fields and maintaining

minimal wage differentials in accordance

with various skills. Guevara emphasised education

in creating a new consciousness. His faith in

the viability of voluntary cooperative labour was

based on his political experience of popular mobilisations

which had produced results that

demonstrably surpassed those observed when effort

was individually rewarded.

The general public was much more engaged by

the debate over incentives and voluntary labour

than that over financing. According to Dumont

(in Lowy, 1973) Guevara criticised monetary rewards

given to Soviet workers and likened them

to North American employees. For Che (1987b)

voluntary labour involved breaking down the

mental:manual duality and creating a spirited,

cooperative culture. Like Marx, Che conceived of

voluntary labour as the pinnacle of a nonalienated

existence and the expression of a truly fulfilled

human.

Che's detailed and complex budgetary finance

system certainly exhibited more collective human

control over production and distribution than

occurs in a free market or in the economic accounting

methods of his opponents in Cuba.

Tablada (1989) lauds Che's 'model' system as 'an

original contribution to the theory of the transition

period', and as 'the driving force behind new

forms of human relations and communist consciousness.'

Che (1987a, p. 220) himself wrote

that:

''centralized planning is the mode of existence

of socialist society, its defining characteristic,

and the point at which man's consciousness

finally succeeds in synthesizing and directing

the economy toward its goal: the full liberation

of the human being within the framework of

communist society.''

However, he stressed that Cuba was only in the

first phase of a transition to communism and

deplored the lack of relevant Marxian theory on

this matter.

510 A. Nelson : Ecological Economics 36 (2001) 499-511

Significantly, Che's budgetary system did not

do without money as a unit of account. Enterprises

simply had no cash for investment because

finance was centrally organised. The banker became

an administrator. Money was still 'an economic

indicator' (Tablada, 1989) and 'a unit of

analysis' (Guevara, 1987a), i.e. a standard of price

or measure of value. Castro (in Habel, 1991, p.

47) accurately represented Guevara's position

when, much later in 1987, he claimed that:

''If there was one thing Che paid absolute

attention to, it was accountancy and the analysis,

cent for cent, of expenses and costs.Che

used to dream of using information technology

to gauge economic efficiency under socialism

and saw this as essential.''

Furthermore, as Tablada (1989) points out, but

without observing the obvious contradiction,

Guevara was impressed by the efficient administration

of the most advanced imperialist

monopoly enterprises. Indeed Che (1987a, p. 209)

felt that their economic methods could be used

'without fear of being 'infected' by bourgeois

ideology'. The adoption of advanced, capitalist,

technology was viewed in a similar way. Guevara's

model was highly centralised and supervised

by a politicised elite who still took world

market prices into account when setting prices

that related to organising Cuba's production.

Guevara did not indicate how this system might

lead to the state devolving its powers over production

and distribution to the people directly or

to a stage where a unit of account like money

would not exist at all. Guevara did suggest that

the latter eventuality relied on the progress of

socialism internationally and presented ideas

about the terms of exchange between socialist

countries that might be followed meantime. Later,

Castro (cited in Lowy, 1973) seemed to wholly

support his positions, claiming that 'we want.to

de-mystify money, not to rehabilitate it' and that,

'[w]e even propose to abolish it altogether.' But,

by then, Che had suffered a resounding defeat in

the great economic debate, a defeat that had given

him reason to leave Cuba altogether.

Neither the Cuban nor the Soviet debaters explicitly

made the issue of transferring power to the

grassroots a central one. The retention of a state

structure and the use of money went hand in

hand. State planning of the economy and regulation

of the distribution of goods and services

seemed to require some kind of money, at least as

a unit of account. In such situations products

retain some of the characteristics of commodities

and workers are likely to be remunerated in

wages, or at least a package of goods and services

quantifiable by way of a single unit.

Bettleheim (1968) argued that Soviet communism

equated to state capitalism precisely because

it adopted monetary economic calculation; transitional

societies cannot avoid the influences of

world prices and foreign trade unless they resort

to autarchy or self-sufficiency. We are returned,

then, to the arguments of nonmarket socialists

regarding the challenge for broad scale change

that a global society constantly engaged in monetary

exchange of goods and services creates. For

all ecological economists too - whether they

consider reforms within capitalism sufficient to

bring ecological concerns within the realm of the

economy, or argue for another system - this

international, not just national or local dimension

for change remains a challenge.

7. Conclusion

Marx's strength lies in the breadth and complexity

of his social analysis. He challenges assumptions

about markets and the state that are

taken on face value by most ecological

economists. In practice, communist movements

have found it as difficult to break from capitalist

custom associated with monetary evaluation and

exchange as to follow Marx's direction in substituting

the state apparatus with grass roots political

forms. Communist countries have experienced

environmental crises too. It is highly questionable

that it is possible for ecological economists to

devise any holistic system or set of interrelated

systems that are sustainable ecologically and economically,

in the narrow capitalist - monetary

- sense of the term. Yet, if we abstract from the

A. Nelson : Ecological Economics 36 (2001) 499-511 511

necessity of money, if the economy is interpreted

as a set of social practices involving nature and

aimed at physical and social reproduction of human

cultures, sustainability in ecosystem and human

terms does appear possible. The formulation

of a sound paradigm for ecological economy must

be based on clarifying issues involving the market,

monetary prices and the state. In fact, the definition

and direction of this superdiscipline is indeterminate

mainly because there is no clarity on such

fundamental points.