Expat haat voor Mocro's.

[Eberhard Leclerc]

Genoten we eerder al gezamenlijk van de draad :'Expat haat voor Vlamingen' ( http://forum.politics.be/showthread.php?t=124032 ), waarin onze expats lucht gaven aan hun idee dat alle Vlamingen zware en verwerpelijke racisten zijn, nu is het tijd voor de tedere gevoelens van de Expats zelf voor hun medestadsgenoten aan de verkeerde kant van Brussel. Het Brussels Expat Forum gaat weer los, en dit keer niet op de Vlamingen.

Lees en geniet wederom;

Een Bloemlezing:

OP 1)- Hi All.Had a traumatic experience this evening.Took the metro number 192 from Roi Baudoin.three teenager enter too,sat down were talking and with no warning,one hid the other on the face.The boy was suprised and this one who was older began hitting him.The younger boys ran off.The attacker came back in the last,walks up to a quite man with a huge bunch of lovely flowers and a bag.The man answered his questions,then he turned on the poor man.I have never seen anything like it.The guy was bleeding,wanted no fight but this one kept at him.A lady pulled the alarm another man tried to intervene but the bastard said he is no police and kept at it.The attacked man ran off the metro,he went after him,he ran in again he came in after him a total stranger.As he was cleaning his bleeding,this animal opens the bag he had pored away the food .The attacked man managed to escape at one of the stops and the animal ,at the next stop picked up his bunch of flowers and walked off.I have never felt such presence of fear as mothers held their kid and people were scared.Those that did not witness how it all started,could not believe the man did not know him.Is it normal for a metro's alarm to be pulled and the driver does not bother to stop or alert police.no one could even call the police as was walking up and down agressive,cursingso much for zero tolerance.!!!!

2) Horrible! I have seen aggressive behaviour on public transport before, Three teenagers of north african orgin opened a window in a tram and when the other passengers asked them to shut it (it was freezing cold), they defiantly kept it open and wouldnt let anyone close it. They were hurling abuse at elderly women who were complaining of the cold. it was all so weird because no one could deal with them. The drivers dare not stop and interfere. I've been told there are certain locations where even ticket inspectors refuse to check people because they are afraid.
Close to Schuman, my friend was assaulted three days ago at around 19hr and three young men tried to take her bag. This kind of violent behaviour seems to be going untackled.

3) And the politician tell us they now have ZERO tolerance in Brussels. It is a joke. I have never been racist, but since I have been here I am,not only towards the North Africans, bit also towards teh Belgians police force. Thy dont seem to care. My freinds have been attacked ( ladies) in their cars by tehse people using GUNS. I travel on Metro every day and see these gangs, but no police. This is th centre of Europe. I have live in much bigger cities but have never had such horrible experieces.I think we all have to report over and over again what we witness in this 3rd world european capital city

4) The major of Brussels (well one of the 19) called the shooting of a policeman with an AK-47 a "fait divers", meaning it's just a slight detail you have to accept while living in this 'big metropole'.
No wonder the police doesn't bother or care anymore.
The facts are that when a politician sees 5 North Africans beating up 1 guy, he will protect the North Africans as 5 votes mean more than 1 vote.

5) Another case of BELGIUM being the so called center of europe, what a load of crap!! its a center of spending great sums of money to look after greedy and unnecessary politicians, have you ever noticed the constant sound of police sirens during the day escorting them around the city ?The Belgians can,t even look after themselves let alone police a country. Not a case of zero tolerance here, its zero guts from the belgians to stand upto these bastards. Make no mistake it will get worse as the recession bites !! (oh! I forgot, there is no recession here in Belgium.)move to J,burg. S.A. its safer there!

6) An awful frightening thing. You must have been terrified.

This is not a race or a belgian thing though. It is a CITY thing. Personally I feel much safer here because I feel at least the police will act hard and has authority.
I am sorry for the women who are carjacked by men with guns. But I need to point out that if you are doing anything that involves having to open something (ie. a door) take a good look round. I never ever go near my car or into my house if a man is walking with no apparent aim.

7) You don't really need to know much more than the following - since 1993 all prison sentences of up to 6 months have not been served. Or is that a CITY thing?

8) Clearly, more asylum seekers, more sans papier,more criminals not serving their prison sentences(prisons are full), more youngsters not sentenced properly (because they are "young,and minors")in the country not a good thing for the security of ordinary citizens

9) Its not a city thing, it's about complacency towards crime. All cities have gangs and people who want to upset the peace. Brussels needs a stronger civil society response but I think the local people have long ago washed their hands off this second rate metropolis. They come here to work and go back to the calm towns in Flanders. I am not one to make sweeping statements , the number of Moroccon youths lurking around bus stops and metros would not be tolerated anywhere. Ghettoisation hascome full circle here.

10) We live in a country where the streets of the capital are ruled by Moroccan youths, the organized crime is led by east Europeans, and the sweet talk of "let them come over,let them do,let them pass" is given by Belgian socialists.

11) The level of tolerance by the police here is appalling, whether it be for petty crime, wearing seatbelts or talking on a mobile phone in the car etc. If the police cracked down hard it might finally send a message. There is no respect in general. I'm of the same view as another poster...I was never racist before and was raised to believe that we all bleed red, but since living here my tolerance has rapidly decreased. You only have to look at the skin colour of the 'minors' involved in most incidences... Horrible, but true. Personally, I'd send them and their parents back to wherever they came from. You immigrate here, you do something wrong, you're out! Be careful everyone.

12) This is a horrible story and I am glad that the attacked man could still walk away. I hope that he is not handicaped for life.

I would like to propose you to take your question about the alarm and why the driver did not respond to the STIB. I regularly complain about much lesser problems (non working escalators, ...) You can enter your text here:
http://www.stib.be/avis-mening.html?l=en

Could I suggest that you rephrase your text as I had some trouble understanding it (you use the term "animal" in the middle, I presume for the attacker?) and add the exact time of the incident etc.?
I would be very interested in getting the answer - that you will certainly receive from the STIB - could you post it when it arrives?

As to what to do?
If you want to do something in such a case, I have learned in a course that it is best to try to get other people do something with you - so - ask your neighbour "we must help the attacked! Get up with me!" If you had pulled all alarms in the wagon, it would have been better. You could have blocked a door so that the metro could not part from a station.

13) Slightly off-topic, but just for info : when you're next in Germany, visit a gun/hunting shop and buy yourselves a small, handbag-sized canister of CS gas or pepper spray; both can be purchased legally in Germany. A can costs about 13 euros. Keep in car's glove compartment, handbag or pocket when visiting areas where you feel you are at risk.
From personal discussions with policemen, I get the impression that if you were about to be assaulted and used one, the police would turn a blind eye, depending on the particular circumstances of the assault and also the place (ie, whether innocent bystanders might also get sprayed, eg in a metro train compartment).

14) oh by the way, I forget to say : to the politically correct brigade - GET STUFFED

15) I was just about to ask what we can do to take action in the face of these increasingly frequent occurrences - and Dirty Harry has come up with a brilliant solution. Can these canisters be bought online or only in the actual shops? As for the police, I get the feeling they turn a blind eye towards EVERYTHING nowadays.

16) Although I believe the police are rather poorly trained and equipped here, and many have a worse handicap, the Belgian mentality - the real problem lies elsewhere. why is the justice system so deplorable? why are there not enough prison spaces? why are politicians afraid to stand up to socially problematic categories of people?

17) Just a quick note of safety (especially women). The area around Schuman has always been a little dodgy after dark, simply because gangs prey their and target office workers leaving work. It's not hard to see why they choose this locality. In the last weeks, there have been at least 2 instances where women were assaulted in an attempt to take away their bags. Please be wary when walking the quiet resedential streets since there are few pedestrians, only motorists, and no shops etc. I dont want to scare anyone but better safe than sorry.

18) Brussels is becoming increasingly violent. Don't respond with comparisons with other places, I'm talking about Brussels, where I live OK?

The youth becoming increasingly brazen. More and more, high powered weapons being used. More attacks. The police are scared, under paid, under trained and of questionable education and backgrounds. Recruitment in the police is a joke. It's descending into a lawless jungle. There is no police presence around the hot spots in the office districts in the peaks times that are known to attract thuggish thieves. It's open day for these louts. because of this I carry a large baseball bat with nails in it aorund in my car. I AM prepared to use it AND ask questions later. And, yes, I am preapred to risk being caught to, the protection of my family comes before that. Of course, if the police actually did their jobs, then I'd happily dispose of it.

19) This seems to be a very emotive subject to all us expats, and so it should be. I think all the answers are very good and constructive. Is,nt it sad that the Belgians are not the same as us. If this gets the action it should from the authorities of Brussels then they will probably say,, well it does,nt happen here very often and we are happy with our streets. Dirty harry has the right idea and I do the same. I would happily go to prison for protecting myself or my family in such circumstances. Wish I had been on that train with you Lady (along with Dirty Harry of course) there would be a different headline today.

20) @ menace (Is,nt it sad that the Belgians are not the same as us)

How do you know? Obviously you are not aware of the growing pressure,by Belgians,on local and federal politicians. It disturbs us more than it disturbs you to see our streets taken over by gangsters (mostly foreign) of various age groups and backgrounds

21) Belgiam made a point which is fair, Belgian, you are far too politically correct in saying that you are asking them to change things here, some will genuinely want to and some do not give a s..t, theres far to many of them making a fat living in Brussels meddling in other member states affairs to admit theres something wrong here. Are there any Belgian people living in the city of Brussels anyway??? Do,nt forget, me and dirty harry are here!

22) some will genuinely want to and some do not give a s..t,"

Oh,no,as a universal rule, politicians all care when the public signals "we ain't gonna take no more",which is what is happening now. Some politicians may be (are) blind to security threats; some may be (are) counting on votes from ghettos...until they realize that they are going to lose the majority's vote unless they say "Halt!" to growing problems of security in the country. People are fed up. Politicians are obliged to act accordingly.

23) Are bystanders legally allowed to intervene in these situations?

24) "Are bystanders legally allowed to intervene in these situations?"

Bystanders are legally required to assist a person in danger. Failure to do so would put you at risk of being prossecuted for "non-assistance a une personne en danger". But you are not expected to put yourself in danger.

Pepper spray is certainly legal in Belgium for police use. I have witnessed a policeman using it to disable a violent teenager on a bus.

25) Watch your back at all times.

If you a female and see an attack - just get off at the next stop. No "man" is going to help you stop the attack> From the safety of the platform, call the police and report what happened - not that I expect the police to be able to apprehend the attacker as he'll be long gone.
What is lacking in Brussels is not the vigilante system but the "neighbourhood watch" system: looking after each other's back and property.
I see drugs being sold 100m from my apartment but when I mentioned it to a policeman when he was inspecting my safe as part of my gun permit application, he was so disinterested. I am not amazed at crime anymore.
Be alert of your surroundings but do not live in fear.

26) @ ps: PS

nicely said, Im sure you thought to yourself having finished your reply, huh?
but honestly, do you even know what you said?
stuff like that only makes people more agressive towards each other and makes them believe in all the racist and nationalistic crap!
Im Eastern European with capital Es and certainly Im no criminal!
Go back to your laptop, sweet job and no caffein coffe! Noone cares!

27) was mugged in the Schuman area three years ago by two youngsters of North African origin. I'm sure that people passed by and did nothing while I was being held there at knifepoint, so I'm mildly amused by all the wannabe Steven Seagals and Chuck Norrises above, there certainly were none when I was mugged. Unless they are only ready to act to defend their own life and stuff, in which case they are no better than those who mugged me.

28) Like as been said before, local politicians cannot afford to take a hard stance fighting crime because pissing off the criminals, pisses off their family and pisses off their racial/ethnical/religious group resulting in a loss of votes in the ethnically diverse communes of this city.
It's like back home in the States where in certain communes the politicians need to make sure that an equal level of Kaukasians, Hispanics and Afro-Americans are being prosecuted to avoid being called a racist and losing votes from an entire ethnical group.
Moreover, as the cry for zero-tolerance comes from the Flemish politicians, the francophone politicians can easily ignore it and play the old and boring 'all Flemish are fascists anyway so we have to ignore them card'.

29) can assure you rhcc that if I had seen that happening I would have helped you. You need to understand that there are poeple out there that will, at any cost, get involved, I am a danger to myself at times, I have even had a go at two guys in the center of the city last year that were throwing bottles at a cafe front just missing my wife my dog and myself. no one elsewas prepared to help even though there were people sat on the terrace drinking. I guess my problem is that I am English (a nice one)and will take no shit from anyone if not deserved. I,m proud of that!!

30) Original poster here.Thanks guys for your input.This is not about race but some people behaving like animals around decent people.I am an African too but the issue of some irresponsible arab youths getting away with everything is beyond political correctness.I know many decent arabs but something need to be done about those who hide behind race and religion to terrorize others.Some stations have been taken over by drug dealers and junkies.it is not only expats that are at risk,just everyone.Decent people can not safely wait at metro Ribocourt for a bus with all the drug dealing around.I have made a rport to stib but did not include my email as I felt with the number of contacts they have in stib,it will really come to nothing.

31) Guys,
Sometimes it feels like you forget that this is an EXPAT form, not a BRIT forum. So please lets be careful about our comments. Especially when you stereotype race, origins and colour unfairly.

Please remember that many of us readers and contributors to this forum are non-EU and non-BRIT. Many of us are of the origins you allege here to be responsible of the civil disobedience that you witness in the city. In fact many of us actually work with you guys in the same offices as your colleagues which further proves we are actually all not the crooks you suppose us to be.

Granted these incidences of crime and disorderly are growing in Brussels. But it is unfair to categorize the whole Belgium nation accordingly. Anyone living outside Brussels will tell you that it is so much more different there. Likewise, many non EU citizens live in Flanders and Wallonia and are very law abiding citizens with successful careers and families.

Honestly if we all were to start country bashing with racist comments, the same or even worse can be said for UK and many of the other EU countries. We all know Baby P wasnt tortured by a North African or Eastern European! Incest and child molestation is rampant in central Europe committed by Caucasians!
I am not trying to be politically correct. I am only pleading that we all access the situation as is, and stop blaming whole countries and societies on localized incidences.

(Stepping down from my soap box)

32) don't see why the mention of nationality or race should be considered automatically a "racist comment".

"Italian pizza" is not racist. "Indian cuisine, French Riviera,Turkish coffee, German efficiency,etc" are not.

"East Europeans are bad" would have been a racist comment,but "East European mafia" is a fact.

"North Africans are bad" would be a racist comment, but "the 3 drug pushers who were caught yesterday are of North-African origin" would be a fact.

The words "Eastern Europe" in the phrases "Take Eastern Europe in NATO and in the EU. Move industrial capacity from the west to Eastern Europe.Invest in Eastern Europe" are perfectly acceptable to East Europeans. Why are the same East Europeans so sensitive and prohibitive about the mention of "Eastern Europe" in the phrase "East European criminal activity"?

Selectivity,eh?

33) This is only the beginning.
If ever a criminal is brought to justice , any punishment under two years (almost everything) is NOT executed. Lacking prisoncells and the Belgian politicians adhere to the New Age philosophy that 'punishing doesnt help' and 'Criminals are good people that just need our help'. The Brussels policeforce, many of them Flemish , is not inclined at all to do anything substantial, blemished by everybody (Immigrants, French speakers, AND eurocrats like us) already for their 'racism'.
And on top of that the management of the policeforce itself was caught in corruption in 2007, which for communatarian reasons, could not be tackled. Moreover the main players are still heading the police.

34) If people from certain origins are more likely to commit crimes it is not because of where they come from but because of the ghetto environment. As long as there are ghettos, they will breed crime and contribute more than their share regardless of who inhabits them. Or have these people been granted citizenship or residence despite having committed multiple crimes? Probably most if not all the "foreign" youth everyone is complaining about were born or at least raised here in the heart of Europe. But they born and raised in the ghetto. Have there been any steps taken by the authorities to "proactively" remedy this situation? No, there is just talk and foreigners are "encouraged" to "integrate." But how are they received by the rest of the population? Europeans who complain on expats about customer service in Belgium should experience it from the eyes of someone who is dark skinned, or worse of a woman with a scarf on her head. On the train I've seen people eye the empty seat next to me and then squeeze in another seat with two other people as if I was the plague incarnate. I am above such things, which point to the emptiness and ignorance of these people. But underprivileged youth living in a ghetto might be affected entirely differently. The police should certainly be doing a better job, and the parents should also be doing a better job of raising their children, but as long as you ignore the ghetto, it will get back at you.

35) Long live Belgium, the Capital of Europe. I have lived in other European cities and have NEVER personally known so many people who have been attacked or mugged as I know here, (not 'even in Britain'!!!)Every Belgian must by law vote, so if they really wanted to clean the country's act I am sure they could do so. But do they really care? They like to have the good jobs at the commission or EP and run departments and jobs there like they run their country, very poorly.
If the police dont care about the muggins and the criminals here why should anyone worry if pepper spray is legal or not?

36) Why are people looking towards politicians and police to solve problems.Many of the police who work in brussels do not live here and hence have no sense of civic pride.Most politicians are short sighted careerists.The way that we run our economies creates huge private wealth and contageous public squalor.Street crime is directly related to poverty, mental health and education.The people who perpetuate the theft of resources,labour,space,housing,dine at the same table as the politicians its for these people we should have zero tolerance they are the real criminals
If you really have fear you must act for me someone who is scared is dangerous.

37) It is very sad. I'm afraid to let my teenager children use the metro alone in case they meet any nasty characters. Maybe if they used more hidden cameras to film criminals and then prosecuted them it would be a deterant. Maybe it's one of the reasons why people are so relunctant to use public transport here. But it is not just crime. It starts when ordinary passagers don't offer to give up their seats to the old or handicaped.

38) being Easter European and living in Shumann, I gotta say, after having read all this, Im quite scared!

[Den Ardennees]

(...)7) You don't really need to know much more than the following - since 1993 all prison sentences of up to 6 months have not been served. Or is that a CITY thing?
(...)

De man zou beter moeten weten, het zijn intussen straffen tot drie jaar die niet worden uitgevoerd.

[Nexer]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Den Ardennees

De man zou beter moeten weten, het zijn intussen straffen tot drie jaar die niet worden uitgevoerd.

Punt 33 is het al 2 jaar.

[Zwartengeel]

'Bruxelles plutôt arabe que flamand', was jarenlang het motto van de Brusselse bestuurders. De Vlaemsche Untermensch is ondertussen politiek geneutraliseerd in hun mooie francophone stad, maar voor de rest denk ik toch dat de zaken enigzins anders verlopen zijn dan ze zelf verwacht hadden...

[Tick]

Als je aanklaagt dat je wordt aangevallen in het openbaar vervoer door marokkanen betekend dan automatisch dat je marokkanen haat? Dat is ook ferm kort door de bocht zenne.

Is het dan ook zo dat wanneer ik aangevallen wordt en dat bij de politie aangeef dat ik een racist ben?

[De Prodigy]

Heb vroeger (1994-1999) ook jaren aan één stuk de metro en de prémetro gebruikt om naar school te gaan.
Kan alléén maar bevestigen.
Meestal geen enkel probleem en dan soms heb je van die dagen da je beter iets vroeger afstapt en de volgende neemt.

[Zwartengeel]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door De Prodigy

Heb vroeger (1994-1999) ook jaren aan één stuk de metro en de prémetro gebruikt om naar school te gaan.
Kan alléén maar bevestigen.
Meestal geen enkel probleem en dan soms heb je van die dagen da je beter iets vroeger afstapt en de volgende neemt.

Tja, ikzelf doe af en toe het traject Bizet-Kunst/Wet en heb ook nog nooit iets meegemaakt. Maar ja, 'wrong place, wrong time'...

[garfield]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Zwartengeel

Tja, ikzelf doe af en toe het traject Bizet-Kunst/Wet en heb ook nog nooit iets meegemaakt. Maar ja, 'wrong place, wrong time'...

Een aanrader is 22h30 Sint guido.
Leuke buurt vooral het Dapperheidsplein

[Eberhard Leclerc]

De gouden regel voor de metro in Brussel is Oostelijk te blijven van station Kunst-Wet. (Alhoewel ook daar uitzonderigen op zijn) Negentig procent van de expats wonen, werken en leven dan ook Oostelijk van dit station.

[Kallikles]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Eberhard Leclerc

De gouden regel voor de metro in Brussel is Oostelijk te blijven van station Kunst-Wet. (Alhoewel ook daar uitzonderigen op zijn) Negentig procent van de expats wonen, werken en leven dan ook Oostelijk van dit station.

Het Oosten van Brussel is afschuwelijk kleinburgerlijk. Geef mij maar Weststation.

[Nexer]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Tick

Als je aanklaagt dat je wordt aangevallen in het openbaar vervoer door marokkanen betekend dan automatisch dat je marokkanen haat?

In België wel. Je bent een racist, je overdrijft, je moet dat allemaal niet zo ernstig nemen, die mannen hebben het moeilijk, ge moet dat begrijpen, enz...

[prins karel]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Tick

Als je aanklaagt dat je wordt aangevallen in het openbaar vervoer door marokkanen betekend dan automatisch dat je marokkanen haat? Dat is ook ferm kort door de bocht zenne.

Is het dan ook zo dat wanneer ik aangevallen wordt en dat bij de politie aangeef dat ik een racist ben?

de kans is inderdaad groot dat je een vervolging krijgt voor racsime

[Steve_M]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door prins karel

de kans is inderdaad groot dat je een vervolging krijgt voor racsime

Die kans is onbestaand. De politie vraagt dat trouwens altijd als je aangifte doet en je de dader(s) moet beschrijven. Been there, done that ...

[iiderVL]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Steve_M

Die kans is onbestaand. De politie vraagt dat trouwens altijd als je aangifte doet en je de dader(s) moet beschrijven. Been there, done that ...

Hoe leg je een politieagent van Afrikaanse origine met wit haar uit dat het een blonde neger was?

[Steve_M]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door iiderVL

Hoe leg je een politieagent van Afrikaanse origine met wit haar uit dat het een blonde neger was?

Ik ben nog maar weinig allochtone agenten tegengekomen, zowel in Antwerpen als in Brussel. De keren dat ik in aanraking kwam met de politie werd mij steevast gevraagd hoe de dader(s) eruit zag(en) (waaronder een keertje: was't ne Marokkaan, menier?).

[filosoof]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Den Ardennees

De man zou beter moeten weten, het zijn intussen straffen tot drie jaar die niet worden uitgevoerd.

Metro 192, wie kent die? Ik niet

[filosoof]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door prins karel

de kans is inderdaad groot dat je een vervolging krijgt voor racsime

Onzin.

[daiwa]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door prins karel

de kans is inderdaad groot dat je een vervolging krijgt voor racsime

Als een moslim zijn mening zegt is dat zijn geloofsovertuiging.
Als een autochtoon zijn mening zegt noemen ze dat racisme.

[Jazeker]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Kallikles

Het Oosten van Brussel is afschuwelijk kleinburgerlijk. Geef mij maar Weststation.

Een atoombom maakt geen onderscheid. Gewoon droppen dat ding.

[Jazeker]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door filosoof

Onzin.

edit.