Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe

"BOLUDOVSKY" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:
>
> > Fight your wars with your Muslim ennemies at Israel's borders, will
> > you.
>
> LOL. If you think that the struggle against Islamofascism only concerns
> Jews, you're dumber than I thought. It's just a matter of time before a
> Jihadi blows himself up in the Brussels subway or in a tram in Antwerpen.
> As Brussels has the HQ of the EU and NATO, it's a primary target for
> terrorists.
>
> > Yes, voting vor VB is a good idea because it scares your own people?
> > Sure.
>
> If as a result some of them pack their stuff and move to Israel even
> reluctantly, then it is OK to me.
>
> > You're still coming short on one name. I gave three of Jewish
> > politicians that have operated in Antwerp and on a national level. You
> > gave me nothing.
>
> Of course I can't give you none. VB is essentially a Flemish nationalist
> party. You can't expect Jews to belong to it. Likewise, you can't expect
> Flemings to belong to the Likud.
>
> > Quote: "Wearing Orthodox black suits and Homburg hats, the men were
> > carrying palm fronds in honor of the feast of Sukkot, celebrated this
> > weekend. That festival meant it was forbidden for Jews to cast their
> > votes, Jeremy Sulzbacher said, unless they had organized a proxy vote.
> > "Vlaams Belang doesn't convince Jewish people," he said. "Once they've
> > finished with the Muslims and the North Africans, who will they start
> > on next? They'll start on us, the Jews."
>
> I'd love to see some figures to confirm or deny that based on facts, not
> sheer speculation.
>
> > Then you don't walk around in Antwerp often.
>
> I go everyday to work there. I haven't seen any skinhead, but that does
> not mean they don't exist. However, unlike in East Germany, they are not a
> primary security concern.
>
> > This doesn't involve a bus driver, but a bus passenger. he was not
> > Jewish, but Belgian. There were no racial slurs before, during or
> > after the incident. If was a fight between an older guy that wanted
> > some young guys to be quite. The old guy died of a heart attack.
> > Nothing indicates that there were any racial motives involved.
>
> My point is that Jewish/Belgian people are nearly always the victims of
> these Arab youths. I doubt the incident would have ended up with a murder
> should the kids have been Belgian or Jewish. Now, I don't know if law and
> order means something for you, but I guess it certainly does for many
hard-
> working citizens worried about the lawlessness and insecurity in their own
> cities.
>
> >> No. I am not aware of that, "off" course. Sounds like the usual
> >> anti-VB
> >> scaremongering.
> >
> > Actually it is written down in their programme. Look on their site,
> > and look it up.
>
> . DEMOCRATIE
>
> Het Vlaams Belang kiest uitdrukkelijk voor de democratie als politiek
> model. Het volk beslist. Dat is meteen de kern van het Vlaams-
> Belangstandpunt terzake.
>
> Nevertheless, I don't have a crystal ball, and I don't know what the VB
> would do should they got into power. Meanwhile, I will give them the
> benefit of the doubt, in particular after seeing how the "democratic"
> parties that don't solve the problems of the citizens attack them.
>
> > You are the first Jewish that I heard declaring that what happened
> > during WW2 is a "secondary issue".
>
> For me, in 2006, certainly it is. Listen, there's some people in Israel
> that, even to date, boycott Germany and don't buy anything German.
However,
> the bulk of the Israeli population moved on a long time ago, and even
> Sharon got a new BMW when he was PM.
>
> If a Jew does not vote for the VB because of the Flemish SS or whatever,
I
> can understand that. However, some other might think that the only way to
> stop the Muslim invasion is voting for the VB.
>
> > We are overrun by Jews as well I
> > guess.
>
> Jews don't pose a threat to the Flemish way of life. They don't plant
> bombs. They don't blow buses up. They don't mug old people. They respect
> the law. They don't get into trouble.
>
> However, I don't want to sound opinionated or self-righteous. Are there
> bad apples in the Jewish community? Certainly, yes. But they are the
> exception, not the norm.
>
> >You might very well be the second largest religious minority
> > group in Antwerp. You're probably next on their list as well.
>
> I don't remember any open hostility from the VB against the Jews during
> the last years.

Good post Bolu...

BOLUDOVSKY schreef:

> > Most dangerous incidents do not involve Arabs, but skinheads.
>
> I haven't seen a skinhead in Antwerp for years.
>

Blind. And selective reader - never heard of "Blood and Honour". Yes,
the guy who killed the Malinese baby sitter and her Flemish charge was
a frequent visitor to their website - which does not exist anymore
since the guys responsible have been arrested on suspicion of planning
terrorist attacks.

....
> > With regard to the "Yeshiva" incident: the latest case in which a
> > Jewish person was attacked (not killed) by an Arab in Antwerp was in
> > 2004?
>
> No. He was killed. Two years ago.
>
> Murder of British Jew heightens racial tensions in Belgium
> Independent, The (London), Nov 19, 2004 by Stephen Castle in Antwerp
>
> A BRITISH orthodox Jew and aide to a local rabbi was shot dead in Antwerp
> yesterday, heightening racial tensions in Belgium's second city after
> recent turbulence in neighbouring Netherlands.
>

As far as I know, no one has ever been charged. You omit to say of
course that there is no indication that the murderer or murderers were
Arabs. Although the guy was in financial difficulties because of
gambling debts, he had a large sum of money on him at the time.

If you know more, tell me.

--
Groetjes uut Gent

BOLUDOVSKY schreef:

> "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:
>
> > Fight your wars with your Muslim ennemies at Israel's borders, will
> > you.
>
> LOL. If you think that the struggle against Islamofascism only concerns
> Jews, you're dumber than I thought. It's just a matter of time before a
> Jihadi blows himself up in the Brussels subway or in a tram in Antwerpen.
> As Brussels has the HQ of the EU and NATO, it's a primary target for
> terrorists.
>
> > Yes, voting vor VB is a good idea because it scares your own people?
> > Sure.
>
> If as a result some of them pack their stuff and move to Israel even
> reluctantly, then it is OK to me.

If I'd had some something like that I'd be called an antisemite.

> > You're still coming short on one name. I gave three of Jewish
> > politicians that have operated in Antwerp and on a national level. You
> > gave me nothing.
>
> Of course I can't give you none. VB is essentially a Flemish nationalist
> party. You can't expect Jews to belong to it. Likewise, you can't expect
> Flemings to belong to the Likud.

There aren't 20.000 Flemish living in Jerusalem afaik.

> > Quote: "Wearing Orthodox black suits and Homburg hats, the men were
> > carrying palm fronds in honor of the feast of Sukkot, celebrated this
> > weekend. That festival meant it was forbidden for Jews to cast their
> > votes, Jeremy Sulzbacher said, unless they had organized a proxy vote.
> > "Vlaams Belang doesn't convince Jewish people," he said. "Once they've
> > finished with the Muslims and the North Africans, who will they start
> > on next? They'll start on us, the Jews."
>
> I'd love to see some figures to confirm or deny that based on facts, not
> sheer speculation.

Neither of us can see in the future with absolute certainty. We can
look at history though, and at the fact that VB absolutely refuses to
distantiate from violent and definately jew-hating groups.

If they are not willing to publickly condemn people tagging jewish
schools with swastika's and people beating up others because of their
religion or skin (except when the people doing those things are muslims
off course) then it is not a good sign for things to come.

> > Then you don't walk around in Antwerp often.
>
> I go everyday to work there. I haven't seen any skinhead, but that does
> not mean they don't exist. However, unlike in East Germany, they are not a
> primary security concern.

I used to live in the centre of Antwerp, now I come there about 3
times/week, I see skins often. Shit, I live in the suburbs of antwerp
now and I see skins on a very regular basis.

> > This doesn't involve a bus driver, but a bus passenger. he was not
> > Jewish, but Belgian. There were no racial slurs before, during or
> > after the incident. If was a fight between an older guy that wanted
> > some young guys to be quite. The old guy died of a heart attack.
> > Nothing indicates that there were any racial motives involved.
>
> My point is that Jewish/Belgian people are nearly always the victims of
> these Arab youths. I doubt the incident would have ended up with a murder
> should the kids have been Belgian or Jewish. Now, I don't know if law and
> order means something for you, but I guess it certainly does for many hard-
> working citizens worried about the lawlessness and insecurity in their own
> cities.

The French black guy that got beat up in Bruges a few months ago (afaik
he is out of his coma now) was beat up by very nice, Flemish kids. With
short hair. I'm sure that this would not have happened if the kids
would have been muslims or jewish.

There are assholes in every religion. I'm not saying that muslims are
not overrepresented in crime statistics, but racism had little to do
with the bus incident as far as we know.

> >> No. I am not aware of that, "off" course. Sounds like the usual
> >> anti-VB
> >> scaremongering.
> >
> > Actually it is written down in their programme. Look on their site,
> > and look it up.
>
> . DEMOCRATIE
>
> Het Vlaams Belang kiest uitdrukkelijk voor de democratie als politiek
> model. Het volk beslist. Dat is meteen de kern van het Vlaams-
> Belangstandpunt terzake.

Yes, after Vlaams Blok was condemned by court for RACISM they created a
new party, with a cleaned up political programme. The people remained
the same however. Look into the programme of Vlaams Blok.

The current president of VB, Frank Van Hecke, is btw the only president
of a political party that was not elected by the members of that party.
Nice example of democracy in action.


> Nevertheless, I don't have a crystal ball, and I don't know what the VB
> would do should they got into power. Meanwhile, I will give them the
> benefit of the doubt, in particular after seeing how the "democratic"
> parties that don't solve the problems of the citizens attack them.
>
> > You are the first Jewish that I heard declaring that what happened
> > during WW2 is a "secondary issue".
>
> For me, in 2006, certainly it is. Listen, there's some people in Israel
> that, even to date, boycott Germany and don't buy anything German. However,
> the bulk of the Israeli population moved on a long time ago, and even
> Sharon got a new BMW when he was PM.

There is no reason to hate germans for WW2, but should you really
respect germans that, up to this day, claim that the holocaust did not
happen or that A.H. was right.

BTW did you know that VB's president, Frank Van hecke, stated in teh
extreme right Deutsche National Zeitung, that:

1. The freeing of Mussolini was the most admirable military action from
history
2. The thing he hates most is the "history fraud" that happened after
WW2
3. He wanted to name Pinochet man of the year in 1990.

And you are sure that this guy is not extreme right?

When VB voted in favour of a law that made denying the holocaust a
crime they had huge protests from their members, as they had always
promised not to agree to such a law.

> If a Jew does not vote for the VB because of the Flemish SS or whatever, I
> can understand that. However, some other might think that the only way to
> stop the Muslim invasion is voting for the VB.
>
> > We are overrun by Jews as well I
> > guess.
>
> Jews don't pose a threat to the Flemish way of life. They don't plant
> bombs. They don't blow buses up. They don't mug old people. They respect
> the law. They don't get into trouble.
>
> However, I don't want to sound opinionated or self-righteous. Are there
> bad apples in the Jewish community? Certainly, yes. But they are the
> exception, not the norm.

I'm not seriously claiming that jewish in antwerp are a threath to our
society, just that they are likely to become the next target if this
party needs another enemy for marketing reasons.

> >You might very well be the second largest religious minority
> > group in Antwerp. You're probably next on their list as well.
>
> I don't remember any open hostility from the VB against the Jews during
> the last years.

Correct, there is no open hostility from VB towards anyone. But can you
honestly say the same about groups like B&H, Voorpost and others? Do
you think they like jews, even though they beat up some jewish kids,
vandalise some jewish cemetaries and paint some swastika's from time to
time?

Surely they are just troubled kids, with good intentions, right?

Look beyond the nice political face of VB, and look at the kind of
people they are willingly representing.

Dimitri

"theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:

> There aren't 20.000 Flemish living in Jerusalem afaik.

No. But there's a Likud chapter in Belgium and in Holland.

> The French black guy that got beat up in Bruges a few months ago
> (afaik he is out of his coma now) was beat up by very nice, Flemish
> kids. With short hair. I'm sure that this would not have happened if
> the kids would have been muslims or jewish.

I don't condone the actions of the skinheads. What I claim is that,
globally speaking, they are less of a threat to this country than Arabs.

> There are assholes in every religion.

Yes. Indeed. However, not all religions preach that you must fight "Holy
war" against infidels. Or that Jews are the sons of pigs. Etc.

> I'm not saying that muslims are
> not overrepresented in crime statistics, but racism had little to do
> with the bus incident as far as we know.

Of course it has to do. When you raise your kids with absolute disregard
of community values such as civility, authority, politeness, discipline,
etc, etc, the result if that you have wild gangs in the street showing no
respect for anything or anybody.

> There is no reason to hate germans for WW2, but should you really
> respect germans that, up to this day, claim that the holocaust did not
> happen or that A.H. was right.
>
> BTW did you know that VB's president, Frank Van hecke, stated in teh
> extreme right Deutsche National Zeitung, that:
>
> 1. The freeing of Mussolini was the most admirable military action
> from history

So what? From a pure military point of view, he may be right. The feats
of marshal Rommel are taught in every military school. Does that make you
a nazi? I don't think so.

> 2. The thing he hates most is the "history fraud" that happened after
> WW2
> 3. He wanted to name Pinochet man of the year in 1990.

By rule of thumb, I don't support any dictatorship, but Pinochet
certainly did something unheard of in any dictator: he gave the power
back to the Chilean people. He fixed the economy. He restored law and
order in Chile. For sure, he's guilty of serious human rights abuses and
Chilean courts are in the process of holding him accountable.

But, on second thoughts, is Pinochet worse than Gorbachev? Was DINA
(Chilean secret police) worse than KGB?

Some law and order guys including Jews like myself prefer a military
coup instead of a communist dictatorship. Between cancer and cholera,
what do you choose?

> I'm not seriously claiming that jewish in antwerp are a threath to our
> society, just that they are likely to become the next target if this
> party needs another enemy for marketing reasons.

Perhaps, but first you have to sell your "product", and I don't think
Belgians are buying that Jews are a threat. If it weren't for the
immigration problem, I guess many VB voters would switch to the CDV or
even the VLD.

> Correct, there is no open hostility from VB towards anyone. But can
> you honestly say the same about groups like B&H, Voorpost and others?

AFAIK, there's no link between those fringe groups and the VB. At least,
no more evident that the link that migth exist between the SP.A and the
extreme-left anti-globalization groups (which, by the way, tend to be
more violent and organized than the far-right gangs).

BOLUDOVSKY



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