Franstalige lijst in LEUVEN

[alpina]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Knuppel

Zorroaster vroeg:

Patriot antwoordde:

[size=6]Inkaderen, jongens![/size]

Je gaat kaders te kort komen hoor Knuppel!

[Dimitri]

Gezelligheid troef hier...

[Dimitri]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door alpina

Je gaat kaders te kort komen hoor Knuppel!

Als de zoekfunctie nou weer terugkomt, hoef je maar alleen 'inkaderen' in te tikken en je hebt alle mooie uitspraken op een rij.

[tenger]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door zorroaster

My dear and eloquent friend, I believe it is particularly strange that a Hungarian, son of the Magyars, is angered by nationalists.
If people like Lajos Kossuth and Sandor Petöfi (nationalists, you knew?) never would have picked up the fight for their right to be a Hungarian in the Austrian empire, your nation never would have reached the independence an ancient and civilezed culture as the Hungarian deserves. If someone should understand the need of nationalism, it should be a Hungarian. I have a young Hungarian friend, Andras, who is also a nationalist of the Fidesz-party of Viktor Orban. Is he a fascist then?
This man, Orban, brought your country to great wealth after the communist era, but in the end, he is a nationalist, isn't it?

The same thing as the Hungarians have received is now desired by the Flemish nationalists, forming a 20 to 30% of the Flemish population and with numbers still growing.
We are not racists, fascists or ethnic cleansers, we just ask the right to live as an independent nation in a United Europe in peace and harmony. We demand that our democratic rights are to be respected, respect for our language and the instruments to govern properly our citizens and economy. In the Belgian situation this seems to be impossible, so we try be peaceful means to give Flanders independence.

Is that a crime?

A most welcome change of tone at last ! Thank you. I was not going to stay very long if not to rise above "Skye" level. You have arguments and good ones ! I will not answer all, excuse me but I'm apparently a unique blend of visitor in these folders and can't answer everybody. But you surely deserve it.

>I believe it is particularly strange that a Hungarian, son of the Magyars, is angered by nationalists.

Perhaps you're missing a critical point of vue. Hungary has paid a terrible price during 50 years for the behavior of a bunch of nationalist thugs during a few years. And the slate is not erased yet, far from it. There are different blends of nationalism of course, even good ones that I would liken with patriotism. But it's not easy to tell how such a political formation will evolve when getting to the top. When you read the program of the NSDAP in the early years, you don't see *that* much fundamental difference with the Blok stuff. Do you want to take the risk ?

>I have a young Hungarian friend, Andras, who is also a nationalist of the Fidesz-party of Viktor Orban. Is he a fascist then?

Can't say without talking to him. Last time I drove through Hungary I was seeing quite too much (to my taste) of these maps displaying greater Hungary around 1100 AD sold everywhere. I found that shocking. Here is a recipe for another cauldron blowing off our faces and I don't need it. I'm weary of all that fighting for frontiers and territory. We're not territorial animals anymore. I don't care if there is a Rumanian or Hungarian flag on Temesv�*r/Timisoara. OTOH I do care about the elementary rights of the Hungarian minority people there. Or for that matter, any minority.

>We are not racists, fascists or ethnic cleansers, we just ask the right to live as an independent nation in a United Europe in peace and harmony.

I can easily believe *you*. Sincerely. But this constant bullying of minorities (wathever they did in the past) by people who don't have your good sense is a very bad advertising. Verhofstad & Michel can travel here and there around the world. But slangs like "eigen volk eerst" run from the western shores to the Volga banks faster than a speeding bullet. There goes Flanders image in the world. A wrong image. Think of it.

>...so we try be peaceful means to give Flanders independence.
>Is that a crime?

No at all, but I don't believe you are representative of the majority of independentists. A the other end of the spectrum you have people like Skye, the kind of demagogue attracting attention and lurking in the shadow of power. And naturally the whole palette in between. What kind of character has the better chances snatch that power ? Woe to everybody if the wrong ticket goes up in the lotery.

I don't defend any personal position here. Mine is garanteed whatever happens to Belgium. I hope the best for Flanders and if independance is your dream, may that dream come true in the best possible ways for *all* .

Out

[alpina]

I can easily believe *you*. Sincerely. But this constant bullying of minorities (wathever they did in the past) by people who don't have your good sense is a very bad advertising. Verhofstad & Michel can travel here and there around the world. But slangs like "eigen volk eerst" run from the western shores to the Volga banks faster than a speeding bullet. There goes Flanders image in the world. A wrong image. Think of it.

That's a wrong image indeed, not only the slang itself is wrong but also the idea that this is a slang of the Flemish nationalists is wrong. It's important to know that those slangs are political statements of the VlaamsBlok and not of the Flemish nationalists! The Flemish nationalists are not only active in the VlaamsBlok but also in the N-VA.

[Jan van den Berghe]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door alpina

It's important to know that those slangs are political statements of the VlaamsBlok and not of the Flemish nationalists! The Flemish nationalists are not only active in the VlaamsBlok but also in the N-VA.

Sedert wanneer is het Vlaams Blok niet meer Vlaamsnationalistisch? De stelling gaat slechts in de volgende mate op: het Vlaams Blok is Vlaamsnationalistisch, maar niet alle Vlaamsnationalisten zijn bij het Vlaams Blok.

[alpina]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jan van den Berghe

Sedert wanneer is het Vlaams Blok niet meer Vlaamsnationalistisch? De stelling gaat slechts in de volgende mate op: het Vlaams Blok is Vlaamsnationalistisch, maar niet alle Vlaamsnationalisten zijn bij het Vlaams Blok.

Dat is toch wat ik geschreven heb?!

Het is belangrijk om weten dat deze slogans de politieke ideeen van het vlaams blok zijn en niet die van de Vlaamsnationalisten. De Vlaamsnationalisten zijn niet alleen actief in het VlaamsBlok maar ook in de N-VA.

[Knuppel]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Dimitri

Als de zoekfunctie nou weer terugkomt, hoef je maar alleen 'inkaderen' in te tikken en je hebt alle mooie uitspraken op een rij.

Ik heb rijen kaders van een fotozaak die ermee stopte ter beschikking.
Laat ze dus maar komen, die fameuze belgicisten-uitspraken.

[zorroaster]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door tenger

Perhaps you're missing a critical point of vue. Hungary has paid a terrible price during 50 years for the behavior of a bunch of nationalist thugs during a few years. And the slate is not erased yet, far from it. There are different blends of nationalism of course, even good ones that I would liken with patriotism. But it's not easy to tell how such a political formation will evolve when getting to the top. When you read the program of the NSDAP in the early years, you don't see *that* much fundamental difference with the Blok stuff. Do you want to take the risk ?

I think this vision is not completely fair for the nationalists in Hungary and alle over the world.
If you name the horrors that have been spread out over Magyarorszag the last 50 years, I think any sensitive human being will agree that the Hungarians got their part of sorrows indeed. But is that to blame on the nationalists? Bela Kun, who took over quickly after the independence, tried to wipe out whole social classes and provoked a war with Romania that ended with losing great chunks of territory and citizens to Romania, Slovakia, Yugoslavia... He was a communist, remember?
Then, after Horty, the communists took over. They are the anti-pole of nationalists, but they evoked a popular rising even quicker! In 1956 all Hungarian social classes fought shoulder by shoulder a doomed revolt against the Soviets in Budapest, to maintain their freedom. This was a revolt that was nationalist too, isn't it?

Indeed, leaders like Hitler and Milosevic said they fought a "nationalist" battle. In fact, most of them just used the nationalism as a cloak for their real motivations: Hunger for power, fascism, proto-communism (Slobodan Milosevic is a good example: A communist turned nationalist, to motivate his grip on the power!).
On the other hand, great people like Mahatma Gandhi were nationalists too. Was Gandhi a racist, fascist or ethnic cleanser? I sure hope not!

[zorroaster]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door tenger

I can easily believe *you*. Sincerely. But this constant bullying of minorities (wathever they did in the past) by people who don't have your good sense is a very bad advertising. Verhofstad & Michel can travel here and there around the world. But slangs like "eigen volk eerst" run from the western shores to the Volga banks faster than a speeding bullet. There goes Flanders image in the world. A wrong image. Think of it.

I think of this during a long time yet.
In fact, what I (or my political party, the N-VA) am seeking is not to bully minorities. We only demand that who settles himself in Flanders is to learn to speak Dutch, our official language.
It is not justified to settle somewhere, make use of the hospitality of the natives, but when you are there finally to demand that they speak your language instead of the reverse. That is almost a colonial vision dating back from the Conquistadores, and I (and everyone with some common sense) believe that time is over.

In Flanders, we see French-speaking Walloons and Francofone citizens of Brussel moving into Flanders to build big and expensive houses because the prices are lower there.
Fine for me, we live in a united Europe after all. But now this recent French-speaking immigrants refuse to speak Dutch or to learn it and demand that the Flemish government adresses them in French and that in the local council French is to be spoken. They start their own political partiy (Union des Francofones, UF) beacuse they refuse to vote on Flemish parties!
Now, these people think of theirselves as a "ethnic minority" that deserves rights and protection in Flanders! They even send supervisors from the European Council (like Nabholz-Haidegger) to punish Flanders and make us look like evil suppressors for all of Europe.

In that case, I wonder who is bullying who and who is treated as the minority and who as the majority...

[Vlaamse Leeuw]

Well said Zorroaster

[tenger]

[quote="zorroaster"][quote="tenger"]

Perhaps you're missing a critical point of vue. Hungary has paid a terrible price during 50 years for the behavior of a bunch of nationalist thugs during a few years. And the slate is not erased yet, far from it. There are different blends of nationalism of course, even good ones that I would liken with patriotism. But it's not easy to tell how such a political formation will evolve when getting to the top. When you read the program of the NSDAP in the early years, you don't see *that* much fundamental difference with the Blok stuff. Do you want to take the risk ?

I think this vision is not completely fair for the nationalists in Hungary and alle over the world.
If you name the horrors that have been spread out over Magyarorszag the last 50 years, I think any sensitive human being will agree that the Hungarians got their part of sorrows indeed. But is that to blame on the nationalists? Bela Kun, who took over quickly after the independence, tried to wipe out whole social classes and provoked a war with Romania that ended with losing great chunks of territory and citizens to Romania, Slovakia, Yugoslavia... He was a communist, remember?

The loss of territory was Trianon. It was as much linked to WWI than Bela Kun's little nationalistic war. That he was a communist doesn't prevent he acted nationalist.

Then, after Horty, the communists took over. They are the anti-pole of nationalists, but they evoked a popular rising even quicker! In 1956 all Hungarian social classes fought shoulder by shoulder a doomed revolt against the Soviets in Budapest, to maintain their freedom. This was a revolt that was nationalist too, isn't it?

Precisely not in the sense you imagine. I know something about that. When you are under the boots of an occupation army, when your country is plundered day after day, year after year by a foreign power, when the AVO (political police) comes to visit you at night if you displease the local Quisling, you don't need much additional incentive to grab a firearm at the first opportunity. Not much nationalism into this. Only a need to put bread on the table for your children without surrendering your freedom and ideals. As you said, the insurrection was doomed. Nagy knew this. He also knew there was no other way.

Indeed, leaders like Hitler and Milosevic said they fought a "nationalist" battle. In fact, most of them just used the nationalism as a cloak for their real motivations: Hunger for power, fascism, proto-communism (Slobodan Milosevic is a good example: A communist turned nationalist, to motivate his grip on the power!).

Tricky rethoric here. I wouldn't draw such a fine line between nationalism and, say, "hunger for power". The two brothers often go hand in hand.

On the other hand, great people like Mahatma Gandhi were nationalists too. Was Gandhi a racist, fascist or ethnic cleanser? I sure hope not!

A different blend of nationalism.

You didn't see Gandhi waving Indian flags all over India, you didn't see him take part in "hatred sessions" right out of "1984" like our dear Skye did here not so long ago. You didn't see him manipulate history to suit demagogy. You didn't see in his program how important it was to bully minorities and flush out the cultural impact of anything non-Indian.

He was a man of peace and culture.

[skye]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door tenger

You didn't see Gandhi waving Indian flags all over India, you didn't see him take part in "hatred sessions" right out of "1984" like our dear Skye did here not so long ago. You didn't see him manipulate history to suit demagogy. You didn't see in his program how important it was to bully minorities and flush out the cultural impact of anything non-Indian.

You were the one who started with the flaming. So don't be surprised if I flame back. Don't be a hypocrite and don't start acting all "high and mighty".

[zorroaster]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door tenger

Tricky rethoric here. I wouldn't draw such a fine line between nationalism and, say, "hunger for power". The two brothers often go hand in hand.

I agree. But does this not count for all political sides, for example socialists and communists as well?
Before the Red Army came, the Hungarian Communist Party had a few hundred members.
When Stalins troopers took Boedapest and he was seeking willing Quislings who wanted to betray their compatriots, tens of thousand new-born communists appeared!
The same thing happened in all other countries of Eastern Europe: When being a communist was paying off, thousands of new communist were born instantly!

Nationalism and a "hung for power" indeed go together sometimes (Milosevic), but in other occasions you see how nationalism brought democracy and justice. India, Indonesia, Africa... Without nationalist leaders like Mandela and Kenyatta, the Africans whould have been slaves forever!

[boer_bavo]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Zeno1

Geen. En trouwens, andersom zal het niet snel gebeuren. Stel je voor: een Vlaamse partij in Wallonie. Neen, Vlamingen gaan ervan uit dat als je in een anderstalig gebied gaat wonen, dat je de elementaire beleefdheid hebt om dan ook de taal te leren.

Franstaligen hebben dit blijkbaar niet...

Het blok komt op in Henegouwen.

[Jan van den Berghe]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door boer_bavo

Het blok komt op in Henegouwen.

Inderdaad. En weet u eigenlijk waarom? Hebt u wel de persmededeling van het VB over deze stap gelezen of gehoord?

[zorroaster]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door tenger

A different blend of nationalism.

You didn't see Gandhi waving Indian flags all over India, you didn't see him take part in "hatred sessions" right out of "1984" like our dear Skye did here not so long ago. You didn't see him manipulate history to suit demagogy. You didn't see in his program how important it was to bully minorities and flush out the cultural impact of anything non-Indian.

He was a man of peace and culture.

Sure! Nationalism has many faces, that is something most people seem to forget. Some are ugly, but many are the most beautiful world has ever seen.
Nationalism is ugly when it becomes expansionist, when it becomes racist and superior and when skin colour and religion are made criteria for being a "part of the nation" or not.
But nationalism is beautiful when it works positive: In the freedom-fights in Africa and Asia for example. In nations being proud of theirselves, without feeling better than other nations. In people practicising the culture and the language that makes them belong to their particular nation.

Men of peace and culture such as Gandhi were nationalist as well, maybe not using flags but using other symbols of independence to demonstrate for the rights of the Indian nation.
So, it isn't the question or nationalism is good or evil, the people that practise this nationalism and their intentions count. They can be good people, like Gandhi and Soekarno, but as well evil people like Milosevic.

[tenger]

[quote="zorroaster"][quote="tenger"]

I can easily believe *you*. Sincerely. But this constant bullying of minorities (wathever they did in the past) by people who don't have your good sense is a very bad advertising. Verhofstad & Michel can travel here and there around the world. But slangs like "eigen volk eerst" run from the western shores to the Volga banks faster than a speeding bullet. There goes Flanders image in the world. A wrong image. Think of it.

I think of this during a long time yet.
In fact, what I (or my political party, the N-VA) am seeking is not to bully minorities. We only demand that who settles himself in Flanders is to learn to speak Dutch, our official language.

Hard to disagree with that, friend. Hopefully you will understand that a cyberspace is not exactly a settling space and I apologize to all readers for my intrusive use of English. My job takes me here and there and I'm just not long enough in Flanders to catch on the full vocabulary yet. Maar wanneer ik met Vlamingen *spreek* is dat altijd in het Nederlands ! Met fouten natuurlijk

It is not justified to settle somewhere, make use of the hospitality of the natives, but when you are there finally to demand that they speak your language instead of the reverse. That is almost a colonial vision dating back from the Conquistadores, and I (and everyone with some common sense) believe that time is over.

Correct.

In Flanders, we see French-speaking Walloons and Francofone citizens of Brussel moving into Flanders to build big and expensive houses because the prices are lower there.

I recall when the Japanese bought that Hollywood giant whose name I don't remember right now. Money rules. Nothing new. Admittedly they made the deal in English

Fine for me, we live in a united Europe after all. But now this recent French-speaking immigrants refuse to speak Dutch or to learn it and demand that the Flemish government adresses them in French and that in the local council French is to be spoken.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong !) that this "demands" only occurs in a specific zone around Brussel where the federal laws grant exceptional rights to the French speaking minority. I believe that these rights where granted as a global agreement on frontiers. One would think if the rights are to be revisited so must be the frontiers.

They start their own political partiy (Union des Francofones, UF) beacuse they refuse to vote on Flemish parties!

Perhaps if they found a Flemish party willing, among other things, to defend their minority rights they would gladly do so ? I started to read the propaganda folders distributed by Flemish formations. From a minority point of vue, it was simply apalling, worst than the Rumanians Alsmost everybody seems to pander to anti-French feelings.

Now take a close look at what happens in Canada. The prime minister there is *elected*, not *nominated*. That means : if any candidate hopes to be elected, he'd better get the votes of the minority. Therefore he puts water in his wine when writing his propaganda folder. And Canada is still a federal state in spite of French independist positions.

Problem is : Belgium is no republic. You can't directly vote for the guy heading your government.

A genuine question for you : why is there never a referendum in Belgium on such an important question as independance ?

Now, these people think of theirselves as a "ethnic minority" that deserves rights and protection in Flanders! They even send supervisors from the European Council (like Nabholz-Haidegger) to punish Flanders and make us look like evil suppressors for all of Europe.

Mmm, I heard from the Blok long before I heard from Nabhoz-Haidegger. Looking evil has more than one cause apparently.

In that case, I wonder who is bullying who and who is treated as the minority and who as the majority...

You surprise me. I've never seen a bullied majority where the prime minister is *always* from the majority. Now, you sure have a beef with the Walloons. Perhaps a justified beef. That's still no reason to make the same errors as they did.

Best regards

[tenger]

We're on the same wavelength here, Zorroaster.

[zorroaster]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door tenger

I think (correct me if I'm wrong !) that this "demands" only occurs in a specific zone around Brussel where the federal laws grant exceptional rights to the French speaking minority. I believe that these rights where granted as a global agreement on frontiers. One would think if the rights are to be revisited so must be the frontiers.

Well, I must say your damn'n well informed for being what we call a "new Belgian". Many people in Flanders have never heard of this so called "faciliteiten" (translated=possibilities) and you know them already!

But, concerning this "faciliteiten", there is more that you don't know yet of them. When they were installed, French and Flemish parties agreed that this was a mere temporaly solution and that they should expire after a few years.
French-speaking habitants of these "faciliteiten"-zone were expected to learn Dutch as soon as possible and then these "faciliteiten" could be revoked. Well, that wasn't to happen. The French-speaking refused to learn Dutch and saw this "faciliteiten" as eternal. They saw these pieces of Flanders as conquered territory, and now they demand that in the local councils French is spoken and that the Flemish goverment adresses them in French.
We have given them a finger, and they took a whole hand (I don't know that this Dutch proverb is the same in English, if it sounds a bit strange I shall explain it if necessary). While these "faciliteiten" were meant to make them integrate better and make 'em more coöperative to learn Dutch, it provoked the reverse.

Now, they are expanding in the whole of Vlaams-Brabant (the Flemish province that surrounds Brussels), even in municipalities where they have no facilities. Still, they refuse to speak Dutch and they send observors like Nabholz-Haidegger to claim that they are a "historic minority" and that they deserve protection.

Well, my friend, this French-speaking immigrants have to learn Dutch as well asevery immigrant here should (like you are doing, and you are doing very well, keep up the good work!). But refusing to speak the language of the territory you move in has nothing to do with claiming rights as a minority, but with pure arrogance and a feeling of superiority.
And that should not be supported or tolerated, isn't it?