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Oud 3 juni 2010, 17:52   #121
Breezertrut
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Israel only has the support left from right wing extremists who hate muslims so bad they just root for whoever kills, humiliate, destroy them. They support them for all the wrong reasons. Or religious fanatics who believe in the end of time profecies.

Not a single reasonable human being could support them.

Thats the reality.
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 17:55   #122
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I will ad my word about this case:

whatever the Israeli soldiers did wrong, I'm sure those islamic fundamentalist turkish activists on that ship were NOT innocent!
I'm sure they deliberately attacked the Israeli soldiers who seem to be ill prepared and landed one by one on the deck.
We all saw the film how those soldiers were battered with iron stafs when they landed... their lives were in danger that was very clear to me. So they had to defend themselves.
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multiculturele samenleving: een bonte maatschappij bestaande uit een evenwichtige verdeling van vele verscheidene culturen en religies. Hierbij bestaat dan wel respekt voor de oorspronkelijke cultuur/religie van de autochtone bevolking.
De multiculturele samenleving is geen biculturele samenleving bestaande uit autochtonen en daarnaast een invasiemacht van een competitieve cultuur met uitbreidingsdrang zoals de islam.


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Oud 3 juni 2010, 17:55   #123
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Sounds more like "one eye in the land of the blind" to me Dom zijn ze niet die reli's hoor.
De "revelaties" van de Mormonen konden enkel door 1 gelezen worden hier lossen ze het zo op
Dude, ik ben het voor de eerste keer eens met jou. Zo zie ik er inderdaad uit na een lekker nachtje in het cafe doorgebracht te hebben
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 17:59   #124
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Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Breezertrut Bekijk bericht
Israel only has the support left from right wing extremists who hate muslims so bad they just root for whoever kills, humiliate, destroy them. They support them for all the wrong reasons. Or religious fanatics who believe in the end of time profecies.

Not a single reasonable human being could support them.

Thats the reality.
Yeah sure, U only forgot the USA and Western Europe.

Going on to the less civilised African or Arabian countries, you'll probably find less support.
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 18:02   #125
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Yeah sure, U only forgot the USA and Western Europe.

Going on to the less civilised African or Arabian countries, you'll probably find less support.
U mean the goverments? Perhaps, I'm talking about the real people. So called "anti semetism" rises year by year in Europe and the US. I wonder why...
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 18:09   #126
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Nederlands typen zou u sieren.
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 18:11   #127
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Dude, ik ben het voor de eerste keer eens met jou. Zo zie ik er inderdaad uit na een lekker nachtje in het cafe doorgebracht te hebben
EEn oog uitgestoken ander ookg sterren spuwend?
Wat serveren ze in uw café boven en vooral ONDER den toog?
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 18:19   #128
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EEn oog uitgestoken ander ookg sterren spuwend?
Wat serveren ze in uw café boven en vooral ONDER den toog?
Tja, goed cafeke he
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 19:23   #129
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It is a lost battle, whatever u try. That might change when the occupation ends. When we see a more human face of Israel.
For once you speak truthfully.

I.e. you have no intention of being sympathetic to Israel whatever they do.


Personally I think that:

- most Arab states are not interested in a solution for the Palestinians unless it means destroying Israël completely. This is partly for religious reasons (Jerusalem has been a battleground between religions forever and I do not believe many middle-eastern Muslims are willing to share it with another religion).

Partly because it is also a very handy tool for the local dictators to focus the anger of their population on an external enemy instead of on themselves.

The biggest proof of this are the palestinian refugees. Most of the Arab states where they have taken refuge have done everything they can to make sure that they could not build succesfull new lives in the country they had taken refuge in, but remained forever stuck in a refugee status.(*) And they call them 'our Palestinian brothers'.... They are just tools in an ideological /poltical struggle.

Can you imagine that if for some reason a large number of Dutch or French citizens had to take refuge in Belgium, 60 years later their great grand-children would STILL be living in refugee camps, and would be classfied refugees??? I can not.

I.e. unlike their claims Arabs do not care for their Palestinian 'brothers'.

- Hamas is not willing to make any sort of agreement whereby Israel keeps on existing except as a 'temporary truce'. How do you negotiate a peace settlement when your opponent wants to see you destroyed?

- The only way I can think of getting to any sort of solution would be by (forcefully) removing all heavy-duty religious types from the region. This means on the one hand the jewish settlers must go - but organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah as well.

Since none of them will leave the area peacefully and noone is willing / able to disarm them forcefully, the conflict will endure untill either party gains complete supremacy. Since I consider their opponents a lot more ruthless, they have much larger numbers and demographics are on their side things do not look well for Israel in the longer term imo.

- Europe should immeadiately stop subsidizing the Palestinians. The demographic explosion of the Palestinian population is making the problems much, much bigger and a solution much harder.

For reference:

Based on the UNRWA definition, the number of Palestine refugees has grown from 711,000 in 1950[2] to over four million registered with the UN in 2002 (wikipedia).

(*) Descendants of Palestinians are the ONLY people in the world automatically recognized as refugees.

Laatst gewijzigd door Rr00ttt : 3 juni 2010 om 19:26.
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 19:29   #130
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For once you speak truthfully.

I.e. you have no intention of being sympathetic to Israel whatever they do.


Personally I think that:

- most Arab states are not interested in a solution for the Palestinians unless it means destroying Israël completely. This is partly for religious reasons (Jerusalem has been a battleground between religions forever and I do not believe many middle-eastern Muslims are willing to share it with another religion).

Partly because it is also a very handy tool for the local dictators to focus the anger of their population on an external enemy instead of on themselves.

The biggest proof of this are the palestinian refugees. Most of the Arab states where they have taken refuge have done everything they can to make sure that they could not build succesfull new lives in the country they had taken refuge in, but remained forever stuck in a refugee status. And they call them 'our Palestinian brothers'.... They are just tools in an ideological /poltical struggle.

Can you imagine that if for some reason a large number of Dutch or French citizens had to take refuge in Belgium, 60 years later their great grand-children would STILL be living in refugee camps??? I can not.

I.e. unlike their claims Arabs do not care for their Palestinian 'brothers'.

- Hamas is not willing to make any sort of agreement whereby Israel keeps on existing except as a 'temporary truce'. How do you negotiate a peace settlement when your opponent wants to see you destroyed?

- The only way I can think of getting to any sort of solution would be by (forcefully) removing all heavy-duty religious types from the region. This means on the one hand the jewish settlers must go - but organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah as well.

Since none of them will leave the area peacefully and noone is willing / able to disarm them forcefully, the conflict will endure untill either party gains complete supremacy. Since I consider their opponents a lot more ruthless, they have much larger numbers and demographics are on their side things do not look well for Israel in the longer term imo.

- Europe should immeadiately stop subsidizing the Palestinians. The demographic explosion of the Palestinian population is making the problems much, much bigger and a solution much harder.

For reference:

Based on the UNRWA definition, the number of Palestine refugees has grown from 711,000 in 1950[2] to over four million registered with the UN in 2002 (wikipedia).
Rediculous, Muslims and jews lived in peace for hundreds of years in Jersalem long before Israel came in to existence, then iswhen it all changed. Mainly because of zionist propaganda.

And no, why would i be sympahetic to a brutal, racist apartheid regime? And their citisenz who support them?

Laatst gewijzigd door Breezertrut : 3 juni 2010 om 19:29.
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 19:48   #131
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Rediculous, Muslims and jews lived in peace for hundreds of years in Jersalem long before Israel came in to existence, then iswhen it all changed. Mainly because of zionist propaganda.

And no, why would i be sympahetic to a brutal, racist apartheid regime? And their citisenz who support them?
And - unfortunately - you only confirm what I said. I.e. your hatred for Israel is so great that you only want to see it destroyed. The suggestions you make on what Israel should do are not made because you believe they will lead to peace, they are only made because it is a step in the right direction, i.e. the destruction of Israel.

I do not say the founding of Israel wasfair for the Palestinians. Neither do I say that the original expulsion of the Palestinians was a good thing, or wasn't a crime. I am saying that we are 60 years later now and that these things are only still a problem because the Arab world wants them to be a problem.

About 10 million germans were forcefully expulsed after WWII. Just like the palestinan refugees were. Would you support their descendants claims for their ancestors property and land? Are their descendants still living in refugee camps?

Btw: there are a large number of arabs living in Israel. They have a hell of a lot more rights than non muslim minorities have in the surrounding countries.

Laatst gewijzigd door Rr00ttt : 3 juni 2010 om 20:17.
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 19:53   #132
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And - unfortunately - you only confirm what I said. I.e. your hatred for Israel is so great that you only want to see it destroyed. The suggestions you make on what Israel should do are not made because you believe they will lead to peace, they are only made because it is a step in the right direction, i.e. the destruction of Israel.

I do not say the founding of Israel wasfair for the Palestinians. Neither do I say that the original expulsion of the Palestinians was a good thing, or wasn't a crime. I am saying that we are 60 years later now and that these things are only still a problem because the Arab world wants them to be a problem.

About 10 million germans were forcefully expulsed after WWII. Just like the palestinan refugees were. Would you support their descendants claims for their ancestors property and land? Are their descendants still living in refugee camps?
You make things up. I didnt say any of these things. I dont have time for goofs who make up their own stories in their head to fit their own agenda, propaganda.
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 20:18   #133
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Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Breezertrut Bekijk bericht
And no, why would i be sympahetic to a brutal, racist apartheid regime? And their citisenz who support them?

I read this as 'even if Israel where to completely leave gaza to it's own I would still consider it "a brutal, racist apartheid regime?". Did you mean anything different?
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Oud 3 juni 2010, 20:22   #134
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You make things up. I didnt say any of these things. I dont have time for goofs who make up their own stories in their head to fit their own agenda, propaganda.
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Oud 4 juni 2010, 06:38   #135
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Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Rr00ttt Bekijk bericht
For once you speak truthfully.

I.e. you have no intention of being sympathetic to Israel whatever they do.


Personally I think that:

- most Arab states are not interested in a solution for the Palestinians unless it means destroying Israël completely. This is partly for religious reasons (Jerusalem has been a battleground between religions forever and I do not believe many middle-eastern Muslims are willing to share it with another religion).

Partly because it is also a very handy tool for the local dictators to focus the anger of their population on an external enemy instead of on themselves.

The biggest proof of this are the palestinian refugees. Most of the Arab states where they have taken refuge have done everything they can to make sure that they could not build succesfull new lives in the country they had taken refuge in, but remained forever stuck in a refugee status.(*) And they call them 'our Palestinian brothers'.... They are just tools in an ideological /poltical struggle.

Can you imagine that if for some reason a large number of Dutch or French citizens had to take refuge in Belgium, 60 years later their great grand-children would STILL be living in refugee camps, and would be classfied refugees??? I can not.

I.e. unlike their claims Arabs do not care for their Palestinian 'brothers'.

- Hamas is not willing to make any sort of agreement whereby Israel keeps on existing except as a 'temporary truce'. How do you negotiate a peace settlement when your opponent wants to see you destroyed?

- The only way I can think of getting to any sort of solution would be by (forcefully) removing all heavy-duty religious types from the region. This means on the one hand the jewish settlers must go - but organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah as well.

Since none of them will leave the area peacefully and noone is willing / able to disarm them forcefully, the conflict will endure untill either party gains complete supremacy. Since I consider their opponents a lot more ruthless, they have much larger numbers and demographics are on their side things do not look well for Israel in the longer term imo.

- Europe should immeadiately stop subsidizing the Palestinians. The demographic explosion of the Palestinian population is making the problems much, much bigger and a solution much harder.

For reference:

Based on the UNRWA definition, the number of Palestine refugees has grown from 711,000 in 1950[2] to over four million registered with the UN in 2002 (wikipedia).

(*) Descendants of Palestinians are the ONLY people in the world automatically recognized as refugees.
Hi Rr00ttt

I believe you touched the most important problem in this region - Lack of democracy.

All of the Arab countries around us are not democracies, they use Israel and the Palestinian problem to "focus the anger of their population on an external enemy instead of on themselves. " and Israel has to deal with these regimes.

But I will still say, Like I said before, Israel was still willing to take these chances and still today willing to make this neighborhood peaceful, and in the process pay the price (Sinai, the peace with Jordan and even the Golan heights).
I do believe there is a chance to make peace with the Palestinian and there I always point to the west bank (although the problem we still have there, you can not compare them today for what they were, lets say, 5 years ago) the economy is blooming, Israel is getting the security it want, and peace talk are on the go.

There for I do believe there is a chance for peace here because the ppl here, like in Europe, just want to live.
Surly there is a culture of difference, surly there is the religious gap, surly you have strong opposition, but if the Palestinian will get a leadership that is willing to take risks (just like we here are willing to take them) I believe there is a good chance to defuse this problem.

Defuse the Palestinian problem every thing ells will fall in place!

PS:
It is not that I am saying that we are all peaceful lambs and all pure church boys, we have done our stupid action also (settlements is a big one of them) but still, bottom line we have poofs that if we have someone to talk on from the other sides we are willing to pay the price!
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Oud 4 juni 2010, 10:53   #136
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Nederlands typen zou u sieren.
2

Niemand zal het een Israëli kwalijk nemen dat er fouten sluipen in zijn Nederlands (Vlaams is geen taal). Maar ik vind het belachelijk hoe ineens iedereen z'n steenkolenengels bovenhaalt, omwille van één persoon.
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Oud 4 juni 2010, 10:57   #137
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2

Niemand zal het een Israëli kwalijk nemen dat er fouten sluipen in zijn Nederlands (Vlaams is geen taal). Maar ik vind het belachelijk hoe ineens iedereen z'n steenkolenengels bovenhaalt, omwille van één persoon.
Omdat het interessant is eens een ander licht op de zaak te laten schijnen, in plaats van altijd maar weer de Palestinian Soap Opera af te spelen.
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Oud 4 juni 2010, 11:02   #138
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Rule no 1 There is no such phenomena as an excisting Arab democracy - if so, tell me.

With the invasion of Iraq - the US Government unleashed a mechanism that qualifies Iraq as the most dangerous country in the world to live in. Chechnya comes a good second.

This implies that Arabs cannot govern a country in a similar way as Europeans do. It is not necessary to go into an endless discussion - these facts are clear as every days life will prove.
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Oud 4 juni 2010, 11:04   #139
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I believe you touched the most important problem in this region - Lack of democracy.

All of the Arab countries around us are not democracies, they use Israel and the Palestinian problem to "focus the anger of their population on an external enemy instead of on themselves. " and Israel has to deal with these regimes.
De aanwezigheid van een parlement volstaat niet om te praten over een democratie. Israël een democratie noemen is ronduit grotesk. Israël is een apartheidsregime, om het met de woorden van Desmond Tutu te zeggen.
Een democratie deporteert niet haar eigen bevolking, een democratie jaagt haar eigen bevolking niet in vluchtelingenkampen, een democratie koppelt burgerrechten niet aan godsdienst.
In een democratie bepaalt het volk de regering en kan het volk de regering afrekenen op haar beleid. Hoe kunnen de Palestijnen hun democratische afkeur laten horen wanneer Israël een muur bouwt in de Westelijke Jordaanoever? Hoe kunnen de Palestijnen hun democratische afkeur laten horen over de checkpoints in de Westelijke Jordaanoever? Hoe kunnen de Palestijnen hun democratische afkeur laten horen over de bouw van nieuwe kolonies in Oost-Jeruzalem? Hoe kunnen de Palestijnen hun democratische afkeur laten horen over het afsluiten van de toegang van Gaza tot de Middellandse Zee?
Gelieve dus de ridicule bewering achterwege te laten dat Israël een democratie zou zijn. Israël is een koloniaal regime, waar de helft van de bevolking geen stemrecht krijgt.
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Oud 4 juni 2010, 11:06   #140
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Omdat het interessant is eens een ander licht op de zaak te laten schijnen, in plaats van altijd maar weer de Palestinian Soap Opera af te spelen.
We hebben in Vlaanderen genoeg ervaring met mensen die menen dat heel de wereld zich dient te schikken naar één of andere superieur gewaande taal.
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The right of a people under occupation to resist through all means, including armed struggle, is fundamental and inviolable, and we will not allow our rights to be liquidated under the slogan of "security" or "stability".
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