Alexander de Grote Klootzak

[kiko]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door lombas

Mijn boekenkast zegt echter anders. Naast buitenlandse- en grenspolitiek van het Oude Rome (een grand histoire waar toch betrekkelijk weinig over geweten is) is gendergeschiedenis een stokpaardje van me; en ik vind toch dat er een ruim aanbod is over de "maatschappij" in de Klassieke Oudheid.

Gendergeschiedenis is interessant, maar persoonlijk heb ik een voorliefde voor de verloren stem van de gewone man doorheen de eeuwen.

Met gewone man bedoel ik zowel de handelaar, de priester, de soldaat de reiziger, de boer, de notaris, de meid, de legionair enz. Dus iedereen waar nog niet tot in ten treure boeken over geschreven werden.

Hun schrijfsels probeer ik steevast op de kop te tikken. Ik denk dan aan de dagboeken van Pepys, de mijmeringen van Naporra, het schrijven van Einhard enz.

Het is interessant om te lezen over de dagdagelijkse beslommeringen van de mensen van toen, alsook hun zienswijze over leven en dood te leren kennen en hun levensverhaal ruwweg proberen te volgen.

Ik krijg in elk geval niet de indruk dat geschiedschrijvers willen laten doorschemeren alsof de Klassieke Oudheid vol oorlogen, intrige, moord, verkrachting &c. zat. Maar het was zonder twijfel wel een veel gewelddadigere maatschappij.

Dat denk ik ook, maar veel hangt af waar je precies woonde.

[eno2]

Het meest verbazende document humain dat ik ooit las, geschreven door de rank&file, is dat van Bernal Diaz, soldaat van Hernan Cortés, die duizend blz nodig had om de gebeurtenissen beschrijven, die hij hoofdzakelijk zelf meemaakte. Glimlachen over de naïeve stijl, ja, maar een ongelooflijk sterk document.

Stel je voor dat iets dergelijks van een soldaat van Alexander tot ons gekomen was. Dan hadden we wel even een ander idee.

Bernal is wel heel loyaal aan Cortès, binnen grenzen van strenge kritiek.

[kiko]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door eno2

Het meest verbazende document humain dat ik ooit las, geschreven door de rank&file, is dat van Bernal Diaz, soldaat van Hernan Cortés, die duizend blz nodig had om de gebeurtenissen beschrijven, die hij hoofdzakelijk zelf meemaakte. Glimlachen over de naïeve stijl, ja, maar een ongelooflijk sterk document.

Stel je voor dat iets dergelijks van een soldaat van Alexander tot ons gekomen was. Dan hadden we wel even een ander idee.

Bernal is wel heel loyaal aan Cortès, binnen grenzen van strenge kritiek.

Ah, dat is het soort schrijfsel dat me ten zeerste interesseert.

[atlantis]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door wild cannibal

een Griek minder ! Tof !

Het waren Macedoniërs, geen Grieken, en Alexander was eveneens een Macedoniër.

[lombas]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door atlantis

Het waren Macedoniërs, geen Grieken, en Alexander was eveneens een Macedoniër.

Macedonië was een Grieks koninkrijk. Met Grieks als taal, Griekse goden, Griekse strijdtactieken, Griekse bondgenoten &c.

Er zit mijns inziens toch nog een trapje verder tussen bijvoorbeeld Thraciërs en Grieken dan tussen Macedoniërs en Grieken.

Alles aan Macedonië was in de tijd van Alexander namelijk zo Grieks als maar kon.

[eno2]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door lombas

Macedonië was een Grieks koninkrijk. Met Grieks als taal, Griekse goden, Griekse strijdtactieken, Griekse bondgenoten &c.

Er zit mijns inziens toch nog een trapje verder tussen bijvoorbeeld Thraciërs en Grieken dan tussen Macedoniërs en Grieken.

Alles aan Macedonië was in de tijd van Alexander namelijk zo Grieks als maar kon.

Alles behalve het politieke systeem, de cultuur en de taal en de legerorganisatie. En het belang van de elite die een landadel was en elk voor zich warlord.

Atlantis is dichter bij de waarheid.

Grieken waren vreemdelingen daar

Macedoniërs, ook de bovenlaag van de edelen, spraken onderling hun eigen dialect en niet Grieks. De zaak is goed gedocumenteerd.

[Zucht]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door eno2

Alles behalve het politieke systeem, de cultuur en de taal en de legerorganisatie. En het belang van de elite die een landadel was en elk voor zich warlord.

Atlantis is dichter bij de waarheid.

Grieken waren vreemdelingen daar
Macedoniërs, ook de bovenlaag van de edelen, spraken onderling hun eigen dialect en niet Grieks. De zaak is goed gedocumenteerd.

Je moet dialecten en talen natuurlijk wel onderscheiden. Spraken ze een Grieks dialect, of een andere taal ?
Tussen Sparta en Athene waren er ook wel flink wat verschillen in cultuur en legeroganisatie dacht ik. De Grieken vonden zelf trouwens dat er "soorten" Grieken waren, bijvoorbeeld Doriërs en Ioniërs, en hun favoriete hobby leek wel onderling oorlog voeren en verbonden sluiten.
Waarmee ze niet anders waren dan andere antieke volkeren, zoals Babyloniërs, Kelten of Italiërs. Zelfs bij de Egyptenaren bleef er altijd wel dat verschil tussen opper en neder Egypte.
Het antwoord op "wat is een Griek" of "wat is een Kelt, wat is een Skyth" enz... zal altijd flexibel zijn, afhankelijk vanuit welk standpunt je het bekijkt. (geschriften, archeologie, linguïstiek, overlevering, romantiek... maw. één waarheid bestaat hier niet.)

[eno2]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Zucht

Je moet dialecten en talen natuurlijk wel onderscheiden. Spraken ze een Grieks dialect, of een andere taal ?
Tussen Sparta en Athene waren er ook wel flink wat verschillen in cultuur en legeroganisatie dacht ik. De Grieken vonden zelf trouwens dat er "soorten" Grieken waren, bijvoorbeeld Doriërs en Ioniërs, en hun favoriete hobby leek wel onderling oorlog voeren en verbonden sluiten.
Waarmee ze niet anders waren dan andere antieke volkeren, zoals Babyloniërs, Kelten of Italiërs. Zelfs bij de Egyptenaren bleef er altijd wel dat verschil tussen opper en neder Egypte.
Het antwoord op "wat is een Griek" of "wat is een Kelt, wat is een Skyth" enz... zal altijd flexibel zijn, afhankelijk vanuit welk standpunt je het bekijkt. (geschriften, archeologie, linguïstiek, overlevering, romantiek... maw. één waarheid bestaat hier niet.)

Het eerste wat ik vind op Wiki geeft Lombas gelijk

Thus, the Macedonian dialect was preserved in an undeveloped and archaic state, as was the case with their entire civilization, but it was Greek. It follows, therefore, that the people, too, were rude and backward, but they were Greeks, appearing as such during the time of Philip and Alexander and even later, when the light of civilization was shining on in their own land. The Greeks moved to Peloponnesus from what is called "Sterea Hellas" Central or Middle Greece. The latter, however, was not wholly evacuated as a result of this southward movement, The same holds true as to Thessaly, whose population or rather a part of it, moved to Middle Greece. Another example: Greeks from all over Greece had left their original hometowns and settled in colonies outside Greece. The latter, however, has never been evacuated altogether by its Greek inhabitants. Thus Macedonia, too, sent out her surplus population without ceasing to be a country of Greeks.'7'

Het was niet de indruk die ik kreeg uit mijn lectuur over Alexander
Ik moet mijn boek over zijn vader Philip nog lezen. Dat zal meer over volk en de taal bevatten. Van oorsprong zijn het Doriërs, dat schijnt vast te staan.

[lombas]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door eno2

Alles behalve het politieke systeem, de cultuur en de taal en de legerorganisatie. En het belang van de elite die een landadel was en elk voor zich warlord.

Atlantis is dichter bij de waarheid.

Grieken waren vreemdelingen daar

Macedoniërs, ook de bovenlaag van de edelen, spraken onderling hun eigen dialect en niet Grieks. De zaak is goed gedocumenteerd.

Euh, is er één Grieks politiek systeem dan? Sparta is u wel bekend? Argos?

En de Macedonische cultuur en legerorganisatie was volledig uitgewerkt op basis van Griekse strategie.

Wat de taal betreft: in de tijd van Alexander sprak men Grieks.

Macedoniërs werden niet tot "barbaroi" gerekend, zoals de Thraciërs.

[lombas]

Verschillende stafofficieren van Alexander waren ook van niet-Macedonische afkomst.

Maar goed, die discussie is niet zo belangrijk denk ik dan.

[eno2]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door lombas

Euh, is er één Grieks politiek systeem dan? Sparta is u wel bekend? Argos?

Ge zegt het daar zelf al. Polis

En de Macedonische cultuur en legerorganisatie was volledig uitgewerkt op basis van Griekse strategie.

[quote] De leger(her)vorming van Philip bleek totaal superieur aan de Griekse. Natuurlijk kwam die niet uit het vacuüm vallen en had hij veel te danken aan Epaminondas en Peloppides (beiden van Thebe)

Wat de taal betreft: in de tijd van Alexander sprak men Grieks.

De omgangstaal was Macedonisch
Bij de berechting van de opperbevelhebber van de Haetari werd hem zeer kwalijk genomen dat hij zijn verdediging "pretentieus" in het GRIEKS uitsprak.

Macedoniërs werden niet tot "barbaroi" gerekend, zoals de Thraciërs.

Philip kreeg de volle Griekse status toegekend vanwege zijn uitzonderlijke verdiensten (voor de Delfische bond) dacht ik. En wat met de deelneming aan de Olympische spelen? In het leger van Alex zijn mij Griekse Olympische winnaars bekend. Geen Macedonische.


Ik heb al aangegeven dat Wiki zich in jouw zin uitspreekt.
Maar het blijft een twistpunt.
Naargelang de bronnen en de geleerden verschillen de standpunten behoorlijk.
Het interesseert mij en tijdens de lectuur van de biografie van Philip II
van Macedonië binnenkort kom ik hier nog wel op terug.
Van mijn leestraject over Alexander heb ik onthouden dat er een strikte
lijn liep tussen Grieks en Macedonisch. En nog des te meer bij rank & file.
. Eumenes de Griek, secretaris van Alex en later succesrijk generaal, is door eigen Macedonische troepen in de steek gelaten en verraden omdat die hem als vreemdeling niet aanvaarden.

[eno2]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door lombas

Verschillende stafofficieren van Alexander waren ook van niet-Macedonische afkomst.

Onder de Haetari? (Trouwens een Grieks woord)
Dat zullen uitzonderingen geweest zijn

Maar goed, die discussie is niet zo belangrijk denk ik dan.

[/quote]



Kijk het waren van in den beginne al Doriërs die niet aan de (duistere) volksverplaatsing deelnamen maar achterbleven, dat staat vast. In hoeverre ze zich verzelfstandigd hebben lijkt me toch wel interessant

[lombas]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door eno2

Onder de Haetari? (Trouwens een Grieks woord)
Dat zullen uitzonderingen geweest zijn

Als ik even de gardeofficieren van Alexander bekijk, zie ik al een aantal namen die geen Macedonische afkomst hadden: Lysimachus, Arybbas, diens substituut Leonnatus, Ptolemaeus (!), Hephaestion (!)...

[eno2]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door lombas

Als ik even de gardeofficieren van Alexander bekijk, zie ik al een aantal namen die geen Macedonische afkomst hadden: Lysimachus, Arybbas, diens substituut Leonnatus, Ptolemaeus (!), Hephaestion (!)...

Dat zegt niks
Je moet naar de afkomst van die mannen zelf kijken
Haast alle Macedonische namen zijn etymologisch Grieks
Van Ptolomeus meen ik te weten dat die uit de kaste van Macedonische Warlords kwam , in zijn geval uit het hooggebergte dacht ik.
Leonnatus sleurde met kamelen overal Sahara-zand mee naartoe voor zijn worsteltraining, dus goede kans dat hij een Griek was.
Nou ja, ik schort het even op voor een ( lange ) tekst later.

. Eumenes de Griek, secretaris van Alex en later succesrijk generaal, is door eigen Macedonische troepen in de steek gelaten en verraden omdat die hem als vreemdeling niet aanvaardden.

d-fout

[lombas]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door eno2

Ge zegt het daar zelf al. Polis

Maar de polis had toch geen monopolie () als Grieks politiek systeem?

Cf. Macedonië (!), Epirus, Thessalië... De meerderheid van de noorderlijke Griekse staten kende geen echte polis-entiteit (wat ook door de geografie in de hand werd gespeeld).

Het is niet omdát zij dat niet kenden, dat ze minder Grieks zijn.

Vele van de eilandstaatjes classificeren overigens evenmin als "polis".

De leger(her)vorming van Philip bleek totaal superieur aan de Griekse. Natuurlijk kwam die niet uit het vacuüm vallen en had hij veel te danken aan Epaminondas en Peloppides (beiden van Thebe)

Het legermodel was volledig gebaseerd op het Griekse, met een sterkere nadruk op cavalerie en het perfectioneren van bepaalde wapens (zoals de sarissa).

Dat Macedonië langzamerhand een aanzienlijk koninkrijk met talloze bondgenoten werd dat een professioneel, quasi-staand leger op de been hield, zal het vanzelfsprekend een iéts groter voordeel gegeven hebben ten aanzien van de losse Griekse confederaties waartegen het vocht.

De omgangstaal was Macedonisch
Bij de berechting van de opperbevelhebber van de Haetari werd hem zeer kwalijk genomen dat hij zijn verdediging "pretentieus" in het GRIEKS uitsprak.

Maar wat is dat "Macedonisch" waarover je spreekt? Zo'n taal bestaat helemaal niet. Het is niet meer dan een dialect van het Grieks (net omdat standaard-Grieks toen helemaal niet bestond).

Bronnen teruggevonden in Macedonië zijn perfect verstaanbaar voor wie nog maar een greintje klassiek Grieks heeft gekregen op school.

Philip kreeg de volle Griekse status toegekend vanwege zijn uitzonderlijke verdiensten (voor de Delfische bond) dacht ik. En wat met de deelneming aan de Olympische spelen? In het leger van Alex zijn mij Griekse Olympische winnaars bekend. Geen Macedonische.

Macedonisch = Grieks.

Dat je dit niet inziet, wordt perfect geïllustreerd door het feit dat je een onderscheid maakt tussen "Griekse" deelnemers en "Macedonisch" aan de Spelen, alsof Macedoniërs niet deelnamen aan de Spelen.

Wel, enkele voorouders van Alexander namen dus wél deel aan de Spelen. Archelaus I bijvoorbeeld, alsook Alexander I. Zelfs zijn eigen vader nam deel aan de Olympische Spelen.

Maar het blijft een twistpunt.
Naargelang de bronnen en de geleerden verschillen de standpunten behoorlijk.
Het interesseert mij en tijdens de lectuur van de biografie van Philip II
van Macedonië binnenkort kom ik hier nog wel op terug.
Van mijn leestraject over Alexander heb ik onthouden dat er een strikte
lijn liep tussen Grieks en Macedonisch. En nog des te meer bij rank & file.
. Eumenes de Griek, secretaris van Alex en later succesrijk generaal, is door eigen Macedonische troepen in de steek gelaten en verraden omdat die hem als vreemdeling niet aanvaarden.

Niemand twijfelt eraan dat Macedonisch een Grieks dialect was - de meest extreme visie kan zijn dat het een aan het Grieks gerelateerde taal was die in de loop van de vierde eeuw volledig doordrongen werd van Grieks.

Mocht West-Vlaanderen nu heel de Nederlanden onder de voet lopen, dan is het ook vanzelfspreken dat de meeste hoge lieden West-Vlaams spreken - maar dat staat niet in de weg dat het Nederlands blijft.

[lombas]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door eno2

Dat zegt niks
Je moet naar de afkomst van die mannen zelf kijken
Haast alle Macedonische namen zijn etymologisch Grieks
Van Ptolomeus meen ik te weten dat die uit de kaste van Macedonische Warlords kwam , in zijn geval uit het hooggebergte dacht ik.
Leonnatus sleurde met kamelen overal Sahara-zand mee naartoe voor zijn worsteltraining, dus goede kans dat hij een Griek was.
Nou ja, ik schort het even op voor een ( lange ) tekst later.

Ik baseer me niet op de namen maar op de afkomst.

Lysimachus ==> Agathocles (Thessalië)
Arybbas ==> waarschijnlijk een Molossische prins (Epirus)
Leonnatus ==> prins (Lynkèstis)
Ptolemaeus ==> laat ons de fabeltjes niet geloven: vader Lagus (Eordea)
Hephaestion ==> Amyntor (Athene)

[eno2]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door lombas

Ik baseer me niet op de namen maar op de afkomst.

Lysimachus ==> Agathocles (Thessalië)
Arybbas ==> waarschijnlijk een Molossische prins (Epirus)
Leonnatus ==> prins (Lynkèstis)
Ptolemaeus ==> laat ons de fabeltjes niet geloven: vader Lagus (Eordea)
Hephaestion ==> Amyntor (Athene)

Knap, maar ik zit hier dan ook zonder mijn bibliotheek en zonder bibliotheek
Zal het toch even trachten te checken

Arybbas =>Epirus = /= Griek De invloed van Epirus is wel zeer groot in Mac.
Ptolemeus => Eordea (moet ik opzoeken)
Status van Thessalië?
Leverancier van vreemde ruiter-troepen?

[eno2]

Maar wat is dat "Macedonisch" waarover je spreekt? Zo'n taal bestaat helemaal niet. Het is niet meer dan een dialect van het Grieks (net omdat standaard-Grieks toen helemaal niet bestond).

Het Macedonisch DIALECT, zei ik al meteen.Geëvolueerd uit het Dorisch.
Maar wel degelijk onverstaanbaar voor Grieken, dacht ik. Ne mens zou er wel eens bij geweest willen zijn.

Zelfs zijn eigen vader nam deel aan de Olympische Spelen.

Als speciale gunst, net zoals zijn koninklijke voorgangers.

PS

1 Hartelijk dank om mijn Izegems (Dat dan weer met verwrongen Frans doorspekt is) toch Nederlands te noemen

Ik heb overigens geen plannen om Nederland onder de voet te lopen, eerder om mij altijd en overal aan de voeten van de Nederlanders te werpen. Te beginnen met Joke (joke)

2 Ik heb daarover veel gelezen, maar het onderwerp niet GESTUDEERD voor een diploma.
Zoals ik al zei ga ik nog verder reageren met een boekensteuntje en niet zomaar uit het hoofd. Een paar weken wachten

[atlantis]

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door lombas

Macedonië was een Grieks koninkrijk. Met Grieks als taal, Griekse goden, Griekse strijdtactieken, Griekse bondgenoten &c.

Er zit mijns inziens toch nog een trapje verder tussen bijvoorbeeld Thraciërs en Grieken dan tussen Macedoniërs en Grieken.

Alles aan Macedonië was in de tijd van Alexander namelijk zo Grieks als maar kon.

Fout.

Hieronder enkele bronnen (in het Engels)

"Macedonia is a Greek Land"?

There is nothing in the ancient literature to suggest that ancient Macedonia was a Greek land. On the contrary, the ancient authors knew the difference between the Greek city-states and the kingdom of Macedon. Ancient and modern authors report:

[1] "While Demosthenes was still in exile, Alexander died in Babylon, and the Greek states combined yet again to form a league against Macedon. Demosthenes attached himself to the Athenian convoys, and threw all his energies into helping them incite the various states to attack the Macedonians and drive them out of Greece." [p.212] Plutarch, 'The Age of Alexander' [Plutarch here specifically distinguishes Greece from Macedonia.]

[2] M.Cary in his book "The Geographic background of Greek and Roman History" (ICBN 0-313-23187-7) I find the following constituent parts of Greece: Epirus, Acarnania, The Ionian Isles, Aetolia, Thessaly, The Spercheu Valley, Locris, Phocis, Boeotia, Euboea, Attica, Aegina, Corinth, Achaea, Elis, Arcadia, Argolis, Laconia, Messenia, The Greek Archipelago, Crete, The Outer Isles, The Northern Aegean, The East Aegean, Rhodes, .......... and of course, No Macedonia. Why M. Cary would omit Macedonia from the general description of Greece? Perhaps for the same reason the German classical scholar Bursian failed to include Macedonia in his otherwise comprehensive geographical survey of Greece "Geographie von Griechenland". Macedonia was simply different country then Greece.

[3] On p. 91 in "Hellenistic World" by F.W.Walbank we find: "It is necessary, in any assessment of the role of Macedonia in the hellenistic world to bear in mind that although our sources naturally, being Greek or based on Greek writers, lay their emphasis on Macedonian policy towards Greece, Macedonia was in fact equally a Balkan power for which the northern, western and north-eastern frontiers were always vital and for which strong defenses and periodic punitive expeditions over the border were fundamental policy." ".... Macedonians were an essential bulwark to the north of Greece". [Self-explanatory]

[4] In N.G.L.Hammond's book "The Macedonian State" on p. 141 states: "Philip and Alexander attracted many able foreigners, especially Greeks, to their service, and many of these were made Companions." [The operative word is "foreigners-especially Greeks", which shows that even Hammond forgets to tow the line.]

[5] In "Makedonika" by Eugene Borza on p. 164 we read: "Alexander seem to have imported troupes of performers from Greece." [One does not import from his own country, does he?]

[6] Plutarch "The Age of Alexander" "Thebans countered by demanding the surrender of Philotas and Antipater and appealing to all who wished to liberate Greece to range themselves on their side, and at this Alexander ordered his troops to prepare for battle." [p.264]

[7] Quintus Rufus "The History of Alexander" Alexander, in a letter, responds to Darius: "His Majesty Alexander to Darius: Greetings. The Darius whose name you have assumed wrought utter destruction upon the Greek inhabitants of the Hellespontine coast and upon the Greek colonies of Ionia, and then crossed the sea with a mighty army, bringing the war to Macedonia and Greece." [p.50-1]

[8] Arrian "The Compaigns of Alexander" Alexander speaking to his officers: ".......But let me remind you: Through your courage and endurance you have gained possession of Ionia, the Hellespont, both Phrygias, Cappadocia, Paphlagonia, Lydia, Caria, Lycia, Pamphylia, Phoenicia and Egypt; the Greek part of Libya is now yours, together with much of Arabia, lowland Syria, Mesopotamia, Babylon, and Susia;........." [p.292] ["The Greek part of Libya is now yours", Alexander and the Macedonians conquer the Greek part of Libya.]

[9] "Only in Thessaly and Boetia, and outside Greece, in Macedonia, was there cavalry worthy of the name."

[10] "The Peloponnesian War was a fratricidal war among the Greeks, a fact that was not altered by the intervention of foreign powers, Macedonia, for instance and later the Persian Empire."

Point of Interest: "a fratricidal war among the Greeks", and "of foreign powers, Macedonia and Persia." Macedonia and Persia clearly painted as non-Greek foreign lands? Ancient and modern scholars alike seem to know much more than today's modern Greeks. [Excerpts taken from The Greeks and Persians, from the sixth to the fourth centuries; edited by Hermann Bengston; published by Delacorte Press, New York.]

[11] This passage is taken from "Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic World" By Pierre Jouguet p.179

"After crossing the Spercheios and ravaging the territory of Heracleia, which he could not take, he marched on Thermopylae. The pass was defended. The peoples of Northern Greece -Locrians, Phocians, Megarians, Boeotians, Athenians- had sent their contingents, the largest being that of Aetolians. Antigonos Gonatas and Antiochos had furnished 500 hoplites each."

The term "Northern Greece" does not include Macedonia. Needless to say, Macedonia lay north of northern Greece and it was never a Greek land.

[12] "His death (Pyrrhos) delivered Antigonos from a great danger. He readily recognized Alexander, Pyrrhos' son, as King of Epeiros. He remained master of Macedon and Greece (272). He placed garrisons in Corinth, the Peiraeus, and Chalcis, and tyrants in many cities, such as Argos, Elis, and Sicyon. So, about 270, a great power was constituted, which had all the resources of Macedon and Greece at its disposal, but had a weakness in the impatience with which the Hellenes supported the yoke." ibid p.181-2 [Pierre Jouguet's book]

a) "He remained master of Macedon and Greece." (272). If Macedonia was a 'Greek land', there would be one identifier in this sentence and not two.

b) "but had a weakness in the impatience with which the Hellenes supported the yoke." Hellenes (Greeks) supporting the yoke? And whose yoke were the Hellenes supporting? The Macedonian, of course. The Hellenes, collectively were enslaved by the Macedonians.

[13] The Geographic Background of Greek and Roman History by M.Cary, D.Litt. Oxon Formerly professor of Ancient History at the University of London. On p.303 we find the following description of the Macedonians:

"Morever, the central position of Macedonia, which exposed it to converging onslaughts in times of weakness, gave it the opportunity of quick counter-thrust from inner lines. Thus from the time of Philip II to the coming of the Romans we find its kings laying about them in all directions-eastward across mount Rhodope into the Hebrus valley, where Philip II established Philoppopolis (Plovdiv) as a bridgehead, northward across the Balkan range to the Danube (Alexander in 335 B.C.), and westward to the Albanian coast (Cassander in 314 B.C.). The lure of Greece and Asia, it is true, diverted Macedonian energies into other objects and reduced attempts at expansion in the Balkan Lands to spasmodic and uncoordinated thrusts. A more systemic policy of 'fanning out', such as the Romans carried out under similar geographic conditions in Italy, might have enable the rulers of Macedon to establish a pax Balkanica."

Now, another compelling reason to dismiss the Greek propaganda as absurd and provocative and they claim that Macedonia was a Greek land. M. Cary does not even include Macedonia in his otherwise extensive and detailed description of Greece. Macedonia is included in the Balkan Lands, together with Thrace.

The lure of Greece and Asia, it is true, diverted Macedonian energies into other objects and reduced attempts at expansion in the Balkan Lands to spasmodic and uncoordinated thrusts. In other words, if Macedonia did not get entangled into the Greek scheme of things, Macedonia could have had pax Balkanica.

[14] Jean Pierre Vernant - "The Greeks" "Athens also imported wood for shipbuilding, wood that for the most part came from northern Greece and from Macedonia." [p.43]

[15] Richard Stoneman - "Alexander the Great" "Alexander the Great was born in summer 356 BC and died thirty-three years later in the month of Daisios (June) 323 BC. He was born the son of Philip, the King of Macedon, a fertile and predominantly pastoral region lying north of classical Greece;" [p.1]

The uncomfortable fact still remains: There is nothing Greek or Hellenic with the ancient Macedonians. Ancient Macedonians enslaved the Hellenes, and Macedon is not part of Greece. The conclusion is inescapable - Ancient Macedonians were distinct and separate ethnicity from the ancient Greeks.

Bronnen:
http://www.germanic-worlds.org/forum...k-lie-number-1

http://faq.macedonia.org/history/anc...greeklie1.html

"Alexander's army was a Greek army"

Actually it is much better to call Darius' army - Greek army, since 50,000 Greeks were fighting on Darius' side against Alexander and his Macedonians, while only 7,000 Greeks served as �hostages� the ambitions of the Macedonian king (Green). These hostages, Alexander got rid of only when he learned that the Macedonian occupation troops have a firm control of the whole of Greece, when Antipater finally subdued the Spartans next to the rest of the Greeks. Here are the overwhelming proofs that the Alexander�s army was not a Greek army, and that Alexander did not care about the Greeks, but his Macedonians:

[1] "This was the Panhellenic crusade preached by Isocrates, and as such the king�s propaganda section continued - for the time being - to present it. No one, so far as we know, was tactless enough to ask the obvious question: if this was a Panhellenic crusade, where were the Greek troops? Peter Green Alexander of Macedon [p. 157]

[2] "The truth of the matter seems to have been that Alexander distrusted his Greek allies so profoundly - and with good reason - that he preferred to risk the collapse of his campaign in a spate of rebellion rather than entrust its safety to a Greek fleet." [p.192]

[3] "The burning of Persepolis had written finish to the Hellenic crusade as such, and he used this excuse to pay off all his league�s troops, Parmenio�s Thessalians included. The crisis in Greece was over: he no longer needed these potential trouble makers as hostages." [p. 322]

[4] Eugene Borza "Makedonika" on the number of Greeks serving the Macedonian king together with the Macedonians:

"Of the nearly 850 persons listed by Berve, 275 are either certainly or probably ethnic Greeks. Of this number, 126 persons are not associated with Alexander's train, and thus outside present concerns. Of the 149 which remain, 69-- nearly half-- are court figures not associated with administration. They include sophists, physicians, actors, athletes, musicians, jugglers, and other entertainers, and a variety of hangers-on. 89 names remain. Of these three are of uncertain ethnic origin. 24 Greeks serve the king in variety of administrative tasks: some are envoys, some are clerks, some financial officers, some act as king's agents in local places. They pop in and out of the historical record as Alexander sees the need to employ them. The remaining 53 Greeks serve specific military functions. Out of these 53 persons, 22 names are attached to a single unit (the allies from Orchomenos), who, by the way, are dismissed along with the other Greek allies in 330 B.C. (Only a few short years into the expedition). Fourteen other Greeks hold naval appointments, either as ship commanders in the Hydaspes fleet, or in conjunction with Nearchus' ocean voyage. Four Greeks are in charge of mercenary units, and 9 others have unspecified, low- level military assignments. Seven have duties that did not take them beyond Egypt. In summary, of the 149 known Greeks with official connections to the king, only 35 to 40 held positions of rank- some as officers, some as administrators, but only a handful in top positions."

[Now, one is seriously pressed to provide the needed evidence for the assertion held by this Greek propaganda that Alexander's crusade and Alexander's army were Greek. The evidence presented simply does not support such an act. An army of over 40,000 soldiers cannot possibly be called Greek army where the Greeks representation is so minuscule and largely insignificant. If Greeks like to claim somebody's army, then their rightful claim should be the Persian army of Darius the III, where the number of Greeks exceeded 50,000 paid mercenaries fighting against the Macedonians despite the Corinth rules that those Greeks who serve the Persian will be treated as traitors.]

[5] "Of the sixty-five or so men named as hetairoi, 9 are Greek, including 3 mainlanders. Of the nine, four owed their position to life-long connections with Macedon: Nearchus (#544) and the brothers Erygius (#302) and Laomedon (#464) were in fact raised as Macedonians, and Demaratus (#253) of Corinth had been associated with the court since the time of Philip II."

[Very small number of Greeks were hetairoi, next to the overwhelming number of Macedonians]

[5] Eugene Borza "Makedonika" "A look at Alexander's satrapal appointments reveals that only 5 of all assigned positions were held by Greeks. There were 52 different persons who held satrapies in Alexander's empire. 24 were Persians and Asians 23 were Macedonians 5 were given to Greeks Of these (5) satrapal appointments given, Nearchus and Sybirtius were from Crete. Stasenor was Cypriote. Cleomenes was from Naucratis in Egypt, and Thoas was from Magnesia on the Meander. No mainland Greek ever held a satrapy in Alexander's empire."

Alexander's conquest was for the greatness of Macedonia. The Greeks served Alexander only as mercenaries and were assigned low garrison duties after 330. The 7,000 Greek 'hostages' that Alexander took with himself, were commanded by Macedonian officers, and had insignificant role in the Macedonian victorious battles. Therefore, Alexander�s conquest was a Macedonian conquest, not Greek, his empire can only be Macedonian (as it was), not Greek, an empire that was won by the Macedonians, not Greek.

http://faq.macedonia.org/history/anc...greeklie5.html

http://www.germanic-worlds.org/forum...k-lie-number-5

It should be no surprise that Alexander introduced the standard koine Greek language for his multi-ethnic empire. For that Greek language was already the only international language on which the people in antiquity communicated prior to the Macedonian conquest (just like English is international language today). The Macedonians were smart enough to keep this international Greek language for the Persians, Egyptians, Jews, and all the nations of his empire to communicate. Forcing all those people to learn now a new foreign Macedonian language (or any other one) would have only provoked an additional hatred and multi-ethnic resistance for the Macedonian occupation of Asia, Egypt, and Greece, which the Macedonians did not wanted to face. Unlike the Roman Empire, there was no single powerful centralized Macedonian Empire, but three main Macedonian kingdoms (Macedonia, Asia, Egypt) which were in conflict occasionally among each other, and the Macedonians needed such language standardization to help them maintain their power. That of course, does not mean that although the Macedonians, Persians, Egyptians, Jews, now communicated in Greek, that they all turned into Greeks, just like the African nations did not turn into French and English because of their usage of those two languages to communicate among themselves.

What is for certain is that Alexander spoke Macedonian with his own Macedonian troops and used Greek in addressing the Asians and Greeks. After all, the Macedonians were his kinsmen (precisely the way he calls them), not the Greeks. All these sources, both ancient and modern, specifically refer to Macedonian as a language and not as a dialect of Greek, and Alexander himself specifically calls the Macedonian - "our native language". During the trial of Philotas, Alexander himself clearly distinguishes his native Macedonian language from the Greek language which as a second language at the Macedonian court alongside with Macedonian, was used in diplomacy, a fact we found in the Philotas trial (Q. Curtius Rufus).

http://www.germanic-worlds.org/forum...k-lie-number-6

ancient Macedonian was a separate Indo-European language, different from ancient Greek, just like the Macedonians were a separate nation different from the ancient Greek nation, and the claim that Macedonian was a "dialect of Greek" and that "Macedonians were Greeks", a claim that today is supported only by the modern Greeks and only out of political reasons, is absurd and ridiculous.


Diodorus Siculus on the Macedonians



Diodorus Siculus

Ancient Greek Historian



The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). The below 40 quotes from his books XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXII, XXVIII, XXIX, XXXI, and XXXII are indeed an overwhelming proof of that:

[1] For even Greeks – Thespians, Plataeans and Orchomenians, and some other hostile to the Thebans who had joined the king (of the Macedonians) in the campaign. 17.13.5.

[2] For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

[3] The Macedonians and Alexander backed Coragus because he was one of them while the Greeks favored Dioxippus. 17.100.4.

[4] Then the Macedonian (Coragus) poised his long lance and charged, but the Greek (Dioxippus), when he came within reach, struck the spear with his club and shuttered it. After these two defeats, Coragus was reduced to continuing the battle with sword, but as he reached for it, the other leaped upon him and seized his swordhand with his left, while with his right hand the Greek upset the Macedonian’s balance and made him lose his footing. 17.100.6-7

[5] He (Alexander the Great) was plainly disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks. 17.101.1-2.

[6] From Europe, the Greek cities AND the Macedonians also sent embassies, as well as the Illyrians and most of those who dwell about the Adriatic Sea, the Thracian peoples and even those of their neighbors the Gauls, whose people became known then first in the Greek world. 17.113.2.

[7] When Perdiccas heard of the revolt of the Greeks, he drew by lot from the Macedonians 3000 infantry and 800 horsemen. 18.7.3

[8] They (the Greeks) had more then 20000 foot soldiers and 3000 horse. 18.7.2. 3000 of these 23000 Greeks were led by a "traitor" who "left his allies without warning and withdrew to e certain hill, taking his 3000 men". 18.7.6.

[9] When oaths to this effect had been sworn and the Greeks were interspersed among the Macedonians, Pithon was greatly pleased, seeing that the affair was progressing according to his intentions; but the Macedonians remembering the orders of Perdiccas and having no regard for the oaths that had been sworn, broke faith with the Greeks. Setting upon them unexpectedly and catching them off their ground, they shot them all down with javelins and seized their possessions as plunder. Pithon then, cheated of his hopes, came back with the Macedonians to Perdiccas. 18.7.8-9

[10] When Alexander died a short time thereafter and left no sons as successors to the kingdom, the Athenians ventured to assert their liberty (from Macedonia) and to claim the leadership of the Greeks. 18.9.1

[11] When the Aetolians listened to him gladly they gave him 7000 soldiers, he sent to the Locrians and the Phocians and the other neighboring peoples and urged them to assist their freedom and rid Greece of the Macedonian despotism. 18.9.5.

[12] The decree of the Assembly of Athens: "people should assume responsibility for the common freedom of the Greeks and liberate the cities that were subject to (Macedonian) garrisons; that they should prepare 40 quadriremes and 200 triremes (ships); that all Athenians up to age of 40 should be enrolled; that three tribes should guard Attica, and that the other seven should be ready for campaign beyond the frontier; that envoys should be sent to visit the Greek cities and tell them that formerly the Athenian people, convinced that all Greece was the common fatherland of the Greeks, had fought by see against those (Macedonian) barbarians who had invaded Greece to enslave her, and that now too Athens believed it necessary to risk lives and money and ships in defense of the common safety of the Greeks." 18.10.1-3.

[13] Of the rest of the Greeks, some were well disposed toward the Macedonians, others remained neutral. 18.11.1

[14] A few of the Illyrians and the Thracians joined the alliance (with the Greeks) because of their hatred of the Macedonians. 18.11.1-2

[15] As soon as, however, as he learned of the movement concerted against him by the Greeks, he left Sippas as general of Macedonia, giving him a significant army and bidding him enlist as many men as possible, while he himself, taking 13000 Macedonians and 600 horsemen, set out from Macedonia to Thessaly (into Greece). 18.12.2

[16] Now that this great force had been added to the Athenians, the Greeks, who far outnumbered the Macedonians, were successful. 18.12.4

[17] As the Macedonians defended themselves stoutly, many of the Greeks who pushed on rashly were killed. 18.12.1-2

[18] Antiphilus, the Greek commander, having defeated the Macedonians in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of the Greeks were thus in thriving condition, but since the Macedonians had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other ships… 18.15.7-8.

[19] Then after such a combat I have described, the battle was broken off, as the scales of victory swung in favour of the Macedonians. More then 500 of the Greeks were killed in the battle, and 130 of the Macedonians. 18.17.5

[20] The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him… 18.37.3-4.

[21] Seleucus and Pithon again tried to persuade the Macedonians to remove Eumenes from his command and to cease preferring against their own interests a man who was a foreigner and who had killed very many Macedonians. 19.13.1

[22] Peucestes (Macedonian commander) had 10000 Persian archers and slingers, 3000 men of every origin equipped for service in the Macedonian array, 600 Greek and Thracian cavalry and more then 400 Persian horsemen. 19.14.5.

[23] Although the risk involved in all these circumstances was clear, nonetheless she decided to remain there, hoping that many Greeks AND Macedonians would come to her aid by sea. 19.35.6.

[24] Then, after making a truce with the other Boeotians and leaving Eupolemus as general for Greece, he went into Macedonia, for he was apprehensive of the enemy’s crossings. 19.77.5-6

[25] In this year Antigonus ordered his general Ptolemaeus into Greece to set the Greeks free… 19.77.2

[26] Ptolemaeus, the general of Antigonus, had been placed in charge of affairs thoughout Greece; 19.87.3 (not in Macedonia).

[27] This was the situation in Asia and in Greece AND Macedonia. 19.105.4

[28] And first he planned to establish order in the affairs of Greece … and then go on against Macedonia itself if Cassander did not march against him. 20.102.1

[29] While these held office, Cassander, king of the Macedonians, on seeing that the power of the Greeks was increasing and that the whole war was directed against Macedonia, became much alarmed about the future. 20.106.1-2

[30] Demetrius was followed by 1500 horsemen, not less then 8000 Macedonian foot-soldiers, mercenaries to the number of 15000, 2500 from the cities throughout Greece. 20.110.4

[30] The utmost spirit or rivalry was not lacking on either side, for the Macedonians were bent on saving their ships, while the Siceliotes wished not only to be regarded as victors over the Carthaginians and the barbarians of Italy, but also to show themselves in the Greek arena as more then a match for the Macedonians, whose spears had subjected both Asia and Europe. 21.2.2

[31] Brennus, the king of the Gauls … invaded Macedonia and engaged in battle. Having in this conflict lost many man .. as lacking sufficient strength … when later he advanced into Greece and to the oracle of Delphi which he wished to plunder. 22.9.1-2

[33] A native of Terentum, Heracleides was a man of surprising wickedness, who had transformed Philip from a victorious king into a harsh and godless tyrant, and had thereby incurred the deep hatred of all Macedonians AND Greeks. 28.9.2

[34] Flamininus held that Philip (the Macedonian king) must completely evacuate Greece, which should thereafter be ungarrisoned and autonomous. 28.11.1

[35] To this Flamininus replied that there was no need of arbitration whom he ha wronged; furthermore he himself was under orders from the Senate to liberate Greece (from Macedonia). 28.11.3-4

[36] When the news of settlement reached him, Flamininus summoned the leading men of all Greece, and convoking an assembly repeated to them Rome’s good services to the Greeks. 28.13.2 (Macedonians excluded from the leading men of Greece)

[37] In defense of the settlement made with Nabis he (Flamininus) pointed out that the Romans had done what was in their power, and that in accordance with the declared policy of the Roman people all the inhabitants of Greece were now free (of Macedonia), ungarrisoned, and most important of all, governed by their own laws. 28.13.3

[38] Philip threatens the Greek Thessalians: "They were not aware, he said, that the Macedonian sun had not yet altogether set." 29.16.1-2

[39] He said, namely, that after seeing the sun rise as he was about to begin transporting his army from Italy to Greece… five day later he arrived in Macedonia. 31-11.2-4

[40] Having as his accomplice a certain harpist named Nicolaus, a Macedonian by birth… 32.15.9

En op het propatrioaforum, een interessant artikel, geplaatsat door een Macedonisch forumlid;

Why Macedonia and the Macedonians had Never been Greek?

1. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, separate from their neighbors, the ancient Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The ancient Greek and Roman historians tell us that the Macedonians spoke a separate Macedonian language and had their own customs, culture, and traditions. Archeological discoveries confirm that the material culture of the Macedonians also defer greatly from all their neighbors, and it is by far more superior in artistry (gold, paintings, weapons, mosaics) then anything found in contemporary Greece, Illyria, and Thrace. The texts of the ancient writers distinguish the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks, just like they distinguish the Romans and the Carthaginians. Yet, like the other non-Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians, and Thracians, the Macedonian high society also used the Greek language along with Macedonian. Greek was spoken by the nobility of many different ancient nations, just like French was spoken in the 19th century (at the German and Russian courts for example). Unfortunately there are only about 150 glosses that have survived of the ancient Macedonian language (most of them with no relation whatsoever with ancient Greek), and like ancient Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, it can not be reconstructed. There is no doubt nevertheless that the Illyrains, Thracians, and Macedonians were non-Greeks, or in the words of the ancient Greeks "barbarians" which literally means people who spoke other non-Greek languages.

2. Macedonia became a world power when the Macedonian king Philip II conquered Thrace, greater part of Illyria, and the whole of Greece (except Sparta). At the battle of Chaeronea in 338, the Macedonian army destroyed the united Greek army, and put an end to Greek freedom and ancient Greek history. To secure the Macedonian conquest, Macedonian garrisons were established in the Greek cities, just like they were established in Thrace and Illyria.

3. Alexander the Great (336-323 BC), Philip II's son took the Macedonian armies even further and conquered the Persian Empire, making Macedonia the largest and most powerful nation in the world for centuries to come. In his army next to the Macedonians, he utilized also troops from the Balkan nations that his father Philip II conquered - Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The Greeks in the Macedonian army however were commanded by Macedonians, their contribution in the conquest was insignificant and miniscule, and modern historiography calls them nothing but Macedonian "hostages" who would ensure a good behavior of their friends and families back in Greece (Peter Green, Urlich Wilcken, Ernst Badian, Eugene Borza, A.B. Bosworth). Aware that the Greeks despised the Macedonians, Alexander left massive Macedonian occupation troops in their country before heading for the conquest of Persia, although he knew that he would need as many as possible Macedonians for the dangerous campaign ahead. He however rid himself of the Greeks in his army the first chance he got, after burning the Persian capital Persepolis, and learning that the last Greek state Sparta was defeated by the Macedonian troops he left to watch rebellious Greece.

4. Despite all, the Greeks never stopped fighting the Macedonians. While Alexander was conquering Persia with his 25-30,000 Macedonians, more then 50,000 Greeks actually fought on the side of the Persians against the Macedonians (Curtius). The Macedonians slaughtered 18,000 of them in the first battle and sent 2,000 to forced labor in Macedonia (Arrian). After Alexander died the Macedonian general Pithon massacred 23,000 more in a single battle when the Greeks revolted in Bactria (Diodorus). In Greece, when the news of Alexander the Great's death became known, the Greeks united once again and threw out the Macedonians out of their country in the Lamian War (Diodorus). But the Macedonian army returned with massive reinforcements, defeated the Greeks both on land and sea, and re-occupied Greece, putting a bloody end of the Lamian War (Diodorus).

5. The Greeks nevertheless continued raising rebellion after rebellion against the Macedonians to free Greece from the foreign occupation. All successors of Alexander the Great fought them, and the Macedonian king Antigonus II Gonatas fought three Greek uprising who unified against the "barbarous Macedonians" (Diodorus, Plutarch, Justin). Finally in 197 BC, the Macedonian king Philip V was defeated by the joint force of Romans and Greeks, and Macedonia lost Greece after almost 150 years of occupation. When the Romans proclaimed that Greece is free, such an enormous burst of enthusiasm exploded among the Greeks that the Roman general who made the announcement was almost killed by the mass of people that flocked to shake his hand and congratulate him for diving the Macedonians out (Livy, Polybius).

6. After the defeat of the Macedonian king Perseus in 168 BC, and the end of the Macedonian rebellion in 148 BC, Macedonia, Greece, and Carthage became part of the Roman Empire. In 395 AD with the split of the Roman Empire, Macedonia and Greece became part of the East Roman (or Byzantine) Empire.

7. Slavs invaded the whole of Balkans in the 6th century, including Macedonia and the whole of Greece, all the way down to the Peloponnesus. Byzantine historians clearly mentioned that the Macedonians did not disappear with the Slavic invasion but continued to exist. In the 10th century Salonica is described as the "largest city of the Macedonians" and to subdue the independent Slavic tribes in the Peloponnesus in Greece, the Byzantine emperors who were Macedonians, belonging to the Macedonian Dynasty, had to sent "Macedonians and Thracians" against them. Thus the Macedonians and Slavs have been living side by side ever since the 6th century. Over period of centuries these Slavic people mixed into the Macedonians in Macedonia, and with the Greeks in Greece, and laid the foundations for the modern Macedonian and Greek nations. Historical records continue to mention the Macedonians until the fall of the Byzantine Empire. It must be stressed that there is NO record of invasion of Greeks into Macedonia.

8. Turkey conquered the Balkans in the 14th century including Greece and Macedonia. With the help of the western powers, the Greeks freed themselves in the 1820's, but the Macedonians failed to gain freedom with their rebellions in 1870's and in 1903.

9. Independent European and Balkan statistics (except exaggerated Greek sources) from the late 19th and early 20th century show that the Greeks were a small minority of only 10%, living in the most southern parts of Macedonia, bordering Greece.

10. In 1913 Greece and her allies Serbia and Bulgaria, with the help of more then 100,000 Macedonians who fought along these three armies, drove the Turks out of Macedonia, but Macedonia did not gain its freedom. Instead, the Balkan countries partitioned Macedonia among themselves and Greece occupied the largest part, 51% of the whole territory, called Aegean Macedonia.

11. Even Greeks sources, including the king of Greece himself in 1912, confirm that when the Greek armies occupied Aegean Macedonia the overwhelming majority of the population were NOT Greeks, confirming the fact that the Greeks never lived in Macedonia since the most ancient times (Nikolaides, Spiros Melas Epopee).

12. But since 1913 Greece begun its assimilatory policies against the Macedonians, changing their family names to Greek names, renaming the cities, rivers, and mountains with Greek names, and forbidding the speaking of the Macedonian language.

13. In the mid 1920's Greeks from Asia Minor begun migrating into Aegean Macedonia for a first time ever, and soon the Macedonians found themselves among strangers in their native land, who most vigorously attacked everything that represents the Macedonian nationality and consciousness. In the 1930's the Macedonians were forced to drink castor oil for speaking Macedonian and had to pay financial penalty for every spoken word of Macedonian.

14. In 1991 the Republic of Macedonia, located north of Aegean Macedonia in Greece, became an independent country. The Republic of Macedonia was the part of Macedonia that Serbia occupied with the partition of 1913. In 1945 the Macedonians of the Republic drove away the fascist Albanian, Bulgarian, and German occupation forces and voted to join new federal Yugoslavia because it respected the Macedonian nationality. With the disintegration of Yugoslavia in the early 1990-1, the Macedonians voted independence in a referendum.

15. Afraid that now one part of Macedonia is independent, the Greeks launched a world-wide propaganda against the Macedonians claiming that "Macedonia has been Greek for 4000 years" (sometimes they say 3000 years, 2500, etc. It varies.). Ironically, despite the fact that the ancient Macedonians committed a real genocide against the ancient Greeks, the ancestors of today's Greeks, despite the fact the Macedonians in Greece are oppressed by them, and despite the fact that the Greeks moved in Aegean Macedonia as majority only 75 years ago.

16. While the Greeks only recently begun to launch the amazing claim that they are descendents of the ancient Macedonians (the people who murdered their own ancestors), it should be stressed that at least since the 18th century (DeTott) and including the 19th and 20th century, there are written records which show that the Macedonians claimed direct descendent from the ancient Macedonians in their struggle to free Macedonia from the Turks. That is centuries before Greece took Aegean Macedonia with its army and launched its propaganda.

17. Today, as we enter the 21st century, the Macedonians of Greece continue to be harassed and discriminated by the Greek government, 87 years since Greece took over Aegean Macedonia. The Macedonian language is still not recognized, the Macedonian nationality is still denied, and the Macedonians are still forced to have Greek family names, because having a Macedonian name Greece considers illegal. Human Rights Watch (Denying Ethnic Identity - Macedonians of Greece), Amnesty International, and the European Community have the Greek oppression of the Macedonians well documented, found Greece guilty, and demanded that it recognize the Macedonian language and nation and end its oppression. Despite of it, the Macedonians continue to exist in Greece as majority in the northern half of Aegean Macedonia and as minority in the southern half, and peacefully continue to demand their human rights. Will Greece ever became a democracy?
18. The Greeks and the Macedonians also greatly defer in physical appearance. The Greeks have typically darker tan then the Macedonians who are fair skinned. Historian Arthur Waigell have stated that the same difference in complexion existed between the ancient Greeks and Macedonians, and the ancient Greek historian Plutarch wrote that Alexander the Great had a fair complexion, criticizing a certain Greek sculptor who had given him a darker tan. The fact that both the Greeks and Macedonians have kept their ancient names is proof that both have been aware of, and preserved their lineage since most ancient times. And finally the latest scientific genetic research conducted by the University in Madrid, Spain concluded that the Macedonians are direct descendents of the ancient Macedonians, while the Greeks are unrelated to European origins and to the "older" Mediterranean substratum to which Macedonians belong to.
bron;

http://www.propatriaforum.org/why-ma...greek-t27.html

[eno2]

Mooie compilatie, links en bronnen (ik moet Diodorus nog in mijn Kindle zetten)
Weinigen zullen betwijfelen dat Macedonië geen Grieks land was.

Ik ga mijn (hopelijk korte) compilatie beperken tot Macedonische eigenheden, zoals cultureel en op taalgebied. Ook de legerorganisatie. Want die is toch wel belangrijk,
aangezien ze daarmee de grootste veroveringen ooit uitvoerden.

ancient Macedonian was a separate Indo-European language, different from ancient Greek, just like the Macedonians were a separate nation different from the ancient Greek nation, and the claim that Macedonian was a "dialect of Greek" and that "Macedonians were Greeks", a claim that today is supported only by the modern Greeks and only out of political reasons, is absurd and ridiculous.

Dat gaat dan tegen Wiki in

Dat heeft nog hedendaagse repercussies.

De naam Macedonia alleen al...