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#61 |
Minister-President
Geregistreerd: 18 december 2002
Berichten: 4.060
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#62 |
Minister-President
Geregistreerd: 18 december 2002
Berichten: 4.060
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![]() THE FIRST SHOT - III
"Historians should love the truth. A historian has a duty to try to write only the truth." By Prof. Justin McCarthy, University of Louisville - (A speech first presented during a conference at Yeditepe University, Istanbul, 2002. Continues from the previous issue…) Armenian Revolutionary Organizations The Dashnaktsuthiun Party, the Armenian Revolutionary Federa-tion, known usually as the Dashnaks, was founded in Tiflis in the Russian Empire in 1890. It joined earlier Armenian nationalist parties in planning the downfall of the Ottoman Empire in Anatolia. The party was socialist and nationalist in ideology. It's Manifesto declared a "people's war against the Turkish government." It spoke of "the scared task of securing national freedom." Amidst calls for redistribution of land, communal brotherhood, and good government, the Dashnak Program of 1892 set forth its revolutionary intentions. These included organizing revolutionary committees and fighting bands and arming "the people. The Dashnaks declared their intention "to stimulate fighting and to terrorize government officials . . ." and "to expose government establishments to looting and destruction." In the ensuing years they carried out their plan. The Dashnak motto (1896) was "Arms! Battle! The victory is ours!" There is neither the time nor the need to describe here the organization and philosophy of the Dashnaks and the other Armenian revolutionary movements. Their own words indicate their purpose--bloody rebellion against the Ottoman Empire. It is more important to consider their deeds than to study their words. One thing must be understood about the purpose of the Armenian revolution, however: The aim of the Armenian revolutionaries was very different than the aim of other nationalist revolutionaries. The people of Italy were Italian. Italian revolutions wanted a state where the majority ruled. Polish nationalists wanted to create a state for the Poles, who were an oppressed majority, ruled by a Russian minority. The same was true all over the world--whatever their methods, good and bad, nationalists at least fought for a state in which the majority would rule themselves. Map #4 It was not so with the Armenian nationalists. Armenian revolutionaries fought to conquer a land in which they were less than 20% of the population. In the region they claimed, the so-called "Six Vilâyets," Muslims outnumbered them by more than four to one. Unlike the Poles, the Italians, the Uzbeks, the South Africans, the Algerians, or the Irish, the Armenians were not a large majority ruled by an imperial master. They were a small group who wished to defeat the majority and seize their land. They were a small group that enlisted the aid of the enemies of their country, because they could never conquer the large majority of Muslims without outside help. What would the Armenian nationalists have done if they had succeeded? History teaches from the sad example of the fate of the Turks of the Balkans. The only way to create an "Armenia" was to exile or kill the majority. There could never have been an Armenia state in Anatolia unless the revolutionaries had rid themselves of the Muslims. This fact must be remembered whenever one considers the Ottoman response to the Armenian revolutionaries. The Ottomans were not only defending their government. They were defending the majority of their people against those who would deny majority rule. Moreover, they were defending those who would be dead or exiled if the revolutionaries succeeded. 1890s Rebellions Armenian rebellions took place in Eastern Anatolia in the 1860s and earlier. But it was in the 1890s that the Armenian revolutionary organizations truly began to put their plans into effect. In 1894, Armenians in the Sasun region rebelled against the government. Large rebel bands concentrated their attacks on symbols of the Ottoman State--tax collectors, government officials, official buildings. They also fought battles with Kurdish tribesmen. There had always been animosity between the Armenians and the Kurdish tribes. This much is understandable. Whether or not one approves of Armenian rebellion, it is understood that rebels attack the government and their old enemies. What happened next is not in any way excusable. The Ottoman army advanced on the rebels. As the rebels retreated they slaughtered the Muslim inhabitants of the villages in their path. In response, the army and local Muslims killed Armenians. It was not the Muslims who began to kill Armenians. It was Armenians who began to kill Muslims. The result was horrible for both. The actions of Armenian rebels in Zeytun and Maras in 1895 were all too similar. Their rebellion was a mass murder of Muslims of the region. The Armenian leader himself claimed to have killed 25,000 Muslims. The Ottoman army was not even allowed to punish the murderers. The European Powers protected them. In Van in the same year the rebels, and many innocent Muslims and Armenians, died when the Armenian nationalists once again rebelled. In Adana in 1909 it was the same; Armenians rebelled, confident of European support that never came. Although the Armenians suffered the greater mortality, Armenian rebel forces unquestionably began the conflict. The Turks responded. They were not only protecting their state; they were protecting their people. In Sasun, in Van, in Zeytun, in Maras, and in Adana, it was Armenian rebels who began the slaughter. It was the Armenian rebels who began to murder their fellow Ottoman citizens. It was not the Turks who attacked the Armenians. It was the Armenians who attacked the Turks. World War I The events of World War I cannot be understood without first looking at the Balkan Wars of 1912 and 1913. Those wars gave revolutionaries a reason to believe that their methods would be successful. Nationalist rebel bands killed the Turks of the Balkans and drove them from their homes. Invading armies finished the job of murder and exile. Muslims, most of them Turks, had been a slight majority in Ottoman Europe in 1912. By the end of the Balkan Wars they were a distinct minority. 27% of the Muslims of the Ottoman Balkans had died. What remained were Bulgarian, Greek, Montenegrin, and Serbian states that had rid themselves of their Muslim populations. Lands that had Muslim majorities now had Christian majorities. This was exactly what the Armenian revolutionaries would have to do on a greater scale, and it had worked in the Balkans. Both sides learned the lessons of the Balkan Wars. The Turks knew what would happen to them if revolutionaries succeeded. The intentions of the Armenian rebels were the same as the intentions of those who had forced the Turks from the Balkans. They wished to rid Eastern Anatolia of its Muslim majority, so that it could become "Armenia." To do so they would use the same tactics that had been effective in the Balkans. Even before the first world war began, Armenian guerilla bands had begun to organize in the Russian Empire. These included Armenians from both Russia and the Ottoman Empire. Approximately 8,000 Ottomans went to Kagizman to train and organize. 6,000 went from Anatolia to Igdir, more to other training camps. They returned to fight the Turks and to aid the Russian war effort. Large caches of guns, ammunition, supplies, and even uniforms had been hidden in depots in Anatolia, ready for use. These were not small units of guerillas. They were not a few men committing random acts of terrorism. There were indeed innumerable such individual acts, but the main Armenian attack came from well-armed and trained rebel bands. They may have numbered as many as 100,000 men. In Sivas Vilâyeti alone Ottoman officials estimated 30,000 Armenian partisans. The mythology of Armenian history holds that peaceful Armenians were attacked without provocation by Turks. The reality was far different. To understand the situation, one should attempt to visualize the situation on the Ottoman-Russian border in Spring of 1915. The Ottoman Army on the Russian Front was in ruins. Enver Pasa had tried to defeat the Russians with a bold but ill-conceived attack at Sarikamis. He had failed badly.3/4 of his army had been lost. All that stood between the Ottoman heartland and Russian invaders were the remnant of the Ottoman Army in the East. Some of these were very good troops. The gendarmerie divisions, made up of gendarmes from the East who knew the territory well, were particularly effective. But the Ottoman forces were few. The Russians were more numerous and better equipped. The only chance the Ottoman forces had was to hold their defensive positions. Every man was needed at the front. However, thousands of men could not advance to the front. They were needed to fight behind the lines. Indeed, some of the best soldiers were withdrawn from the front and sent to fight internal enemies, Armenian rebels. The Russian Front was in danger. Ultimately it collapsed. Ultimately the Russians invaded and conquered Eastern Anatolia, bringing with them triumphant Armenian rebels. The Russian invasion of Anatolia in 1915 was spearheaded by units made up of Armenians from both Ottoman Anatolia and Russia. Armenians served as scouts for the Russian Army. Most important, bands of Armenians hampered transportation and cut military communications throughout the Ottoman East. The internal threat from Armenian guerillas, Armenian "chette" bands, was a serious threat to the existence of the Ottoman Empire and a real threat to the lives of the Muslims of Anatolia. Before any Armenians were deported, before any Armenian nationalist politician was hung, before any Armenian died at the hands of an Ottoman soldier, even before war was officially declared, Armenian nationalists had begun to organize their rebellion. The actions of the Armenian rebels were not simply rebellion. Ottoman Armenians acted as agents of the Russian Army. They made war on their own country, the Ottoman Empire, and fought on the side of its main enemy, the Russian Empire. As they freely admitted at the time, they were traitors who had enlisted with their country's worst enemy. In order to see the effect of the Armenian Rebellion, one need only look at the map. Only the main centers of rebellion are shown. Armenian bands were actually traveling throughout Eastern Anatolia, hindering transportation, cutting communications lines, and attacking isolated Muslim villages. Only the regions of major activity by large bodies of men can be shown on the map. At first glance, some of the regions of rebellion seem to be oddly chosen. Why Sivas? It seems an unlikely place for a rebellion. Only 13% of the population of Sivas Vilâyeti was Armenian. Sivas was far from the front, far from possible Russian support. But look at the roads. In order to reach the battle with the Russians, troops and supplies had to pass through Sivas. Retreating soldiers also were forced to pass through Sivas. Sivas was also the hub for the telegraph system that extended to the battle zone. The city and province of Sivas were transportation and communication bottlenecks. Any disruption in Sivas was a blow against the Ottoman war effort. The regions of Armenian rebellion in Cilicia and Urfa were also in regions with great strategic importance. Because the Taurus tunnels had not been completed, war materials and soldiers for the theater of war in Iraq had to be trans-shipped in Cilicia, then travel on through the Urfa Region.The British seriously considered attacking in Cilicia rather than Gallipoli (and would have been far more successful if they had.) Armenian forces in Van and in the Russian border areas also had a potential strategic effect. The Russians had moved into Western Iran. They threatened Ottoman positions in the East and ultimately intended to attack into Iraq and join with the British. (No one expected that the Ottomans would defeat the British in Iraq.) In order to check the Russian advance, the Ottomans should have moved East. There were only two possible roads from Anatolia into Iran--the routes through Bayezit in the North or through Van in the South. Is it only coincidence that these two were major centers of Armenian rebellion? Until someone is able to research Russian army orders to Armenian units, we will not know how much of the Armenian rebellion was well planned to aid the Russians. It seems unlikely that such strategic points were chosen at random. The important point, however, is not why they were chosen but the grave danger they presented to the Ottoman forces. The Ottomans needed to put down the revolt. They needed to do so because Armenian forces were slaughtering Muslims, but they also needed to do so for military reasons. The Armenian rebels were enemy forces that were contributing to Ottoman defeat. The main Armenian contribution to the Russians was the fact that their rebellion occupied so many Ottoman soldiers and gravely hindered the Ottoman war effort. But from the standpoint of humanity, the worst effect of the Armenian rebellion was the mortality of the innocent Muslim civilians killed by the Armenian rebels and, it should not be forgotten, the mortality of the innocent Armenian civilians who were killed in revenge. It was Armenian rebels who began the killing. By far the greatest number of dead were Muslims. Why did the Ottomans deport the Armenians? They did it to remove a civilian population that would surely aid and comfort the enemy, as had been proven. Perhaps most of the Armenians would not have acted against the Ottomans, but how could anyone know who would and who would not aid the Russians, the British, and the French? I believe that, in the heat of war and in their desire to defend their Empire and its people, the Ottomans went too far and deported many who were no threat. But it should never be forgotten that the Ottomans had good reason to act as they did. Nor should it be forgotten that it was the Armenians and Russians who first forced Muslims from their homes. One fact cannot be doubted. During World War I, as for 100 years before, it was not the Turks who first attacked the Armenians. It was the Armenians who first attacked the Turks. http://www.theturkishtimes.com/archi..._mccarthy.html |
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#63 |
Gouverneur
Geregistreerd: 16 oktober 2003
Locatie: 't Stad
Berichten: 1.197
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![]() Ik stel voor, Turk4Ever, dat je naar Ankara gaat en voorstelt dat ze daar een automatisch computerprogramma ontwerpen dat posts automatisch op basis van de inhoud analyseert en dan automatisch de relevante Turkse propaganda-quote post. Dat zal je werk veel gemakkelijker maken, dan moet je die copy/paste knopjes niet zo vaak gebruiken.
Justin McCarthy is een door de Turkse overheid menigmaal gelauwerde negationist die op geen enkele manier kan worden beschreven als een 'objectieve' wetenschapper. Hij doet dat wat de Turkse regering doet: gewoon alle bewijzen voor een genocide afdoen als 'propaganda' en de minste bewering van de Osmaanse overheid van die tijd aanvaarden als onbetwistbaar feit. Tussen twee haakjes, het feit dat de website van de Association of Turkish Associations of America deze onzin post is veelzeggend.
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"January 15, 1916 - To the Government of Aleppo - We are informed that certain orphanages which have opened also admitted the children of the Armenians. [...]the Government will view the feeding of such children or any effort to prolong their lives as an act completely opposite to its purpose, since it regards the survival of these children as detrimental. - Minister of the Interior, TALAAT." Laatst gewijzigd door Joriske : 23 april 2005 om 06:17. |
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#64 | |
Gouverneur
Geregistreerd: 16 oktober 2003
Locatie: 't Stad
Berichten: 1.197
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![]() Citaat:
Jazeker, deze vertalingen bestaan. Tegen het einde van de 19e eeuw waren de Armeniërs zo 'vereuropeest' dat hun componisten opera's componeerden. Een van de grootste Armeense dichters, Taniël Varoujan, studeerde trouwens begin deze eeuw aan de Universiteit van Gent. (Werd op 24 April 1915 vermoord.
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"January 15, 1916 - To the Government of Aleppo - We are informed that certain orphanages which have opened also admitted the children of the Armenians. [...]the Government will view the feeding of such children or any effort to prolong their lives as an act completely opposite to its purpose, since it regards the survival of these children as detrimental. - Minister of the Interior, TALAAT." |
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#65 | |
Gouverneur
Geregistreerd: 16 oktober 2003
Locatie: 't Stad
Berichten: 1.197
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![]() Citaat:
Maar ja, het ene moment ben je een flutprofessortje aan de flutuniversiteit van Louisville, Kentucky, en dan opeens wordt je een nationale bekendheid in een land als Turkije waar alle media een interview vragen, je wordt ontvangen door President en Premier en op de handen gedragen omdat je een nationale leugen propageert. Moeilijk om aan die verleiding te weerstaan.
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"January 15, 1916 - To the Government of Aleppo - We are informed that certain orphanages which have opened also admitted the children of the Armenians. [...]the Government will view the feeding of such children or any effort to prolong their lives as an act completely opposite to its purpose, since it regards the survival of these children as detrimental. - Minister of the Interior, TALAAT." |
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#67 | |
Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN
Geregistreerd: 27 maart 2004
Berichten: 15.640
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#68 | |
Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN
Geregistreerd: 27 maart 2004
Berichten: 15.640
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#69 | |
Minister-President
Geregistreerd: 18 december 2002
Berichten: 4.060
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#70 | |
Minister-President
Geregistreerd: 18 december 2002
Berichten: 4.060
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#71 | |
Minister-President
Geregistreerd: 18 december 2002
Berichten: 4.060
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#72 | |
Gouverneur
Geregistreerd: 16 oktober 2003
Locatie: 't Stad
Berichten: 1.197
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![]() Citaat:
De forumleden kunnen idd 'de andere kant' van het verhaal leren en er eens goed mee lachen. Want 'de andere kant is inderdaad niets meer dan een verhaal. De Armeniërs hebben een nieuw onderzoek afgeslagen omdat de Genocide al 90 jaar een historisch feit is. Daarover gaan we geen kunstmatig debat creëren om de Turkse generaals een pleziertje te doen. En wat Prof. McCarthy betreft: het is niet omdat iemand "Prof." voor zijn naam heeft dat hij ook altijd de objectieve waarheid opzoekt. In het geval van McCarthy gaat het om een grove, professionele charlatan.
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"January 15, 1916 - To the Government of Aleppo - We are informed that certain orphanages which have opened also admitted the children of the Armenians. [...]the Government will view the feeding of such children or any effort to prolong their lives as an act completely opposite to its purpose, since it regards the survival of these children as detrimental. - Minister of the Interior, TALAAT." Laatst gewijzigd door Joriske : 23 april 2005 om 12:09. |
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#73 | |
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 27 januari 2004
Locatie: Virtuix Omni
Berichten: 7.552
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![]() Citaat:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhis.../armenians.htm There were also big cultural differences between Armenians and Turks. The Armenians had always been one of the best educated communities within the old Turkish empire. Armenians were the professionals in society, the businessmen, lawyers, doctors and skilled craftsmen. And they were more open to new scientific, political and social ideas from the West (Europe and America). Children of wealthy Armenians went to Paris, Geneva or even to America to complete their education. By contrast, the majority of Turks were illiterate peasant farmers and small shop keepers. Leaders of the Ottoman Empire had traditionally placed little value on education and not a single institute of higher learning could be found within their old empire. The various autocratic and despotic rulers throughout the empire's history had valued loyalty and blind obedience above all. Their uneducated subjects had never heard of democracy or liberalism and thus had no inclination toward political reform. But this was not the case with the better educated Armenians who sought political and social reforms that would improve life for themselves and Turkey's other minorities. |
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#74 | |
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 27 januari 2004
Locatie: Virtuix Omni
Berichten: 7.552
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Ik bedoelde : one of veel meer. |
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#75 | |
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 27 januari 2004
Locatie: Virtuix Omni
Berichten: 7.552
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Als je wat teruggaat in de geschiedenis zie je bovendien dat er al in 1895 en 1908 verschrikkelijke pogroms waren tegen armeniërs. Bovendien past de genocide perfect in het ideologisch plaatje van het Turanisme van Mehmed Talaat, Ismail Enver and Ahmed Djemal. Om de discussie constructief te houden, kunnen we msschn dat Turanisme wat dieper bekijken ? |
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#76 |
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 27 januari 2004
Locatie: Virtuix Omni
Berichten: 7.552
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![]() Laatst gewijzigd door Knipp : 23 april 2005 om 17:01. |
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#77 |
Gouverneur
Geregistreerd: 16 oktober 2003
Locatie: 't Stad
Berichten: 1.197
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![]() http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,352702,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,351674,00.html Twee interessante artikels in het Duits, in 'Der Spiegel', het gerespecteerde Duitse weekblad. N.a.v. een aankomende resolutie in het Duitse parlement waarin Duitsland haar verontschuldigingen aanbiedt voor het aandeel van de regering van Keizer Wilhelm in de Armeense genocide. Een voorbeeld dat ze in Ankara zouden moeten volgen.
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"January 15, 1916 - To the Government of Aleppo - We are informed that certain orphanages which have opened also admitted the children of the Armenians. [...]the Government will view the feeding of such children or any effort to prolong their lives as an act completely opposite to its purpose, since it regards the survival of these children as detrimental. - Minister of the Interior, TALAAT." |
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#78 |
Minister-President
Geregistreerd: 18 december 2002
Berichten: 4.060
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![]() Waarom zijn er 200.000 Armeniers levend aangekomen in Syrie? Waarom hebben de Turken hen niet vermoord? Als het echt de bedoeling was van de Ottomanen de Armeniers uit te roeien dan zouden ze toch ook vermoord worden? Waarom zijn de Armeniers uit Istanbul, Izmir en een aantal andere steden niet gedeporteerd? Waarom? Omdat ze geen bedreiging vormden. Denk hier maar eens over na. Joriske zal wel weer met een drogreden aankomen maar dit zijn de feiten.
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#79 | |
Gouverneur
Geregistreerd: 16 oktober 2003
Locatie: 't Stad
Berichten: 1.197
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![]() Citaat:
Ja, in Aushwitz en Dachau hebben ze ook niet alle Joden kunnen vermoorden. Weet je dat Armeniërs uit Bursa werden gedeporteerd? Bursa ligt in het helemaal in het westen van Turkije. Ook uit Ankara, Konya, Antalya werden Armeniërs gedeporteerd, en die steden lagen zeer ver van het front, bovendien vormden de Armeniërs daar zeer kleine minderheden die nooit zouden kunnen hopen op onafhankelijkheid of een Russische interventie; waarom zouden zij dan in opstand komen? In het geval van de Armeniërs van Bursa was de eindbestemming Mosul. Nu moet je me eens vertellen hoe de Ottomaanse regering verwachtte dat duizenden Armeniërs die grotendeels te voet van het Westen van Anatolië naar het noorden van Irak moeten verhuizen, zonder voeding of water zouden kunnen overleven. Laat me je eens iets vertellen over mijn eigen familie. Mijn overgrootvader was een goudsmid in de Oost-Anatolische stad Marash (jij kent het waarschijnlijk onder de naam Karamanmaras). Hij was een conservatief man, een echte Osmaanse Armeniër die zelfs, net zoals zeer vele Armeniërs uit Marash, thuis Turks sprak. Hij was getrouwd, met 9 kinderen. Op een avond in 1915 komt tijdens het avondmaal een Turkse vriend van de familie bij hem aankloppen; de vriend is een functionaris in de plaatselijke administratie van Marash. Hij verteld mijn overgrootvader dat er de volgende dag een deportatiebevel zou worden uitgevaardigd en dat hij in geen geval eraan zou mogen gehoorzamen. Hij gaf mijn overgrootvader de raad om zich met de familie ergens te verbergen. Mijn overgrootvader, in al zijn naïviteit, geloofde zijn Turkse vriend niet. Hij kon gewoonweg niet geloven dat hij, als gehoorzaam burger, door de Osmaanse staat zou kunnen worden mishandeld. De volgende dag geeft hij gevolg aan het deportatiebevel, want er staat toch in dat er op de eindbestemming accomodatie was voorzien en dat ze werden gedeporteerd ‘voor hun eigen bescherming’. Binnen twee jaar zijn hij, zijn vrouw en zeven van de negen kinderen dood – afgeslacht door hun Turkse ‘bewakers’ of verhongerd of verdorst in de Syrische woestijn. Ik zal je de details van de moordpartijen, verkrachtingen, verminkingen, dorst, honger en ziektes besparen. En dit verhaal herhaalt zich keer op keer in andere Armeense families.
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"January 15, 1916 - To the Government of Aleppo - We are informed that certain orphanages which have opened also admitted the children of the Armenians. [...]the Government will view the feeding of such children or any effort to prolong their lives as an act completely opposite to its purpose, since it regards the survival of these children as detrimental. - Minister of the Interior, TALAAT." |
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#80 |
Secretaris-Generaal VN
Geregistreerd: 7 september 2002
Locatie: Waregem
Berichten: 178.701
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![]() Ik zie dat de Turken weer eens het bestaan van de zon aan het ontkennen zijn... Zo'n volk hoort duidelijk niet thuis in de EU.
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