Europese grondwet zonder christelijke waarden een goede zaak? - Pagina 8

Fozzie · 5 november 2006, 21:14

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jozef Ostyn

U bent een idioot. Volgens u waren er in Frankrijk in de 18de eeuw dus Franse slaven? U moet dringend eens een ernstig werk over de geschiedenis van de slavernij lezen. U weet er niets van.

Niet persoonlijk worden, hé, schelden is meer iets voor kleuters. Daarbij als slavernij werd afgeschaft, dan wil dat toch zeggen dat het bestond hé. Als het niet bestond, waarom dan af schaffen? Ik zeg niet dat er Franse slaven waren, ik zei dat slavernij bestond (de slaven konden dus ook uit kolonies komen). Lijfeigenschap is trouwens ook een vorm van slavernij.

drosophila · 5 november 2006, 23:40

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm

Jozef Ostyn · 6 november 2006, 00:37

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Fozzie

Niet persoonlijk worden, hé, schelden is meer iets voor kleuters. Daarbij als slavernij werd afgeschaft, dan wil dat toch zeggen dat het bestond hé. Als het niet bestond, waarom dan af schaffen? Ik zeg niet dat er Franse slaven waren, ik zei dat slavernij bestond (de slaven konden dus ook uit kolonies komen). Lijfeigenschap is trouwens ook een vorm van slavernij.

Ik scheld niet. Maar wanneer iemand zich op idiote wijze uit dan noem ik dat ook zo.

Fozzie · 6 november 2006, 01:23

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jozef Ostyn

Ik scheld niet. Maar wanneer iemand zich op idiote wijze uit dan noem ik dat ook zo.

Correctie, u noemde niet mijn bijdrage idioot, maar u noemde mij persoonlijk een idioot. En iemand persoonlijk uit schelden is een veel idiotere wijze van uiting dan gewoon verschillen van mening.

Moest je met argumenten af komen die mijn mening ondergraven, dan zou ik daar meer respect voor hebben dan voor ordinaire scheldpartijen.
U gaat niet accoord met mijn stelling dat de afschaffing van de slavernij pas is begonnen tijden en na de Franse revolutie (de Verlichting), maar in de plaats van daar argumenten tegen te plaatsen, of zelfs nog maar wat uitleg kom je af met "0/10 voor geschiedenis", "u bent een idioot" en "wanneer iemand zich op een idiote wijze uit".

Indien u weet heeft van wetteksten van voor de Verlichting waarin slavernij werd afgeschaft, dan zal ik die met plezier aan nemen, ik leer graag iets bij.

Bovenbuur · 6 november 2006, 10:15

Cultuur is iets levends, het is belachelijk om ergens vast te leggen wat de 'heersende' cultuur is, hoe je daar mee om moet gaan en wat je er allemaal aan moet doen. De wereld ziet er nu heel anders uit dan een aantal decennia geleden, en over een paar decenia lachen we weer om hoe het nu was (denk bijvoorbeeld aan een soort 'grease' in 'urban' stijl). Cultuur is niet vast te leggen, dus waarom zou je dat willen?

drosophila · 6 november 2006, 12:17

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Jozef Ostyn

Ik scheld niet. Maar wanneer iemand zich op idiote wijze uit dan noem ik dat ook zo.

Ostyn, het zou voor u nochtans zeer simpel zijn iedereen hier de mond te snoeren: toon aan dat dankzij de Katholieke Kerk(1) de slavernij reeds in de middeleeuwen(2) is uitgeroeid.

drosophila · 6 november 2006, 16:09

SLAVERY and the BIBLE1

Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty - - 2 Corinthians 3:17

Louis W. Cable

There is no morality outside of the Holy Bible! We hear this cliché repeated ad nauseam by Bible believers. But is the Bible itself morally flawed? Take for example the institution of human slavery perhaps the most degrading form of social subordination. Could anything be more immoral than the buying and selling of fellow human beings into a hopeless life of involuntary servitude? What does the Bible have to say about it? Well, we'll see. But first, let us briefly review the history of slavery in the United States of America.

The importation of African slaves into the New World began shortly after Columbus’ famous “discovery” in 1492. In 1517 the Bishop of Las Casas, a high official in the Roman Catholic Church, encouraged immigration to the New World by permitting Spaniards to import twelve Negroes each2. So Christianity and African slaves were introduced into the New World at about the same time. In what was later to become the United States of America it begin in 1619 when twenty Africans were off loaded from a Dutch ship at Jamestown, Virginia and sold into slavery3. From these humble beginnings the slave trade blossomed into a hugely profitable venture for the slave traders.

Many of our revered founding fathers were slave owners. George Washington, the father of our country, owned slaves as did the great Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence. Patrick Henry, the great orator who coined the famous slogan, “Give me liberty or give me death,” was, ironically enough, a slave owner. The slaver trade was recognized as a legitimate commercial enterprise, and slave markets operated openly. The rights of slave owners were protected by law while the slave, of course, had no rights. Although President Lincoln's famous Emancipation Proclamation became effective on January 1,1863, slavery did not officially end in this country until the thirteenth amendment to the U. S. Constitution was finally ratified on December 6,1865.

Slavery was legal in the United States for almost two hundred and fifty years. Why so long? Isn’t this a Christian nation founded on God’s word, the Holy Bible? That’s what many Christians tell me. Well, if that’s so, maybe that’s where the rub comes in because the Bible not only condones slavery, it actually encourages that cruel institution and has, in fact, been effectively used to promote and preserve it. Here, for example, is a quote from Jefferson Davis, the first and only president of the Confederacy, "It (slavery) was established by decree of Almighty God and is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments from Genesis to Revelation4."

President Davis was right. God approves of slavery. In Exodus 21 the guidelines for the buying, selling and treatment of slaves is given. God says in verse 4 that if a male slave marries, his wife and children shall remain with the master when the slave departs because technically speaking they belong to the master. How's that for family values? Now if the slave is imprudent enough to protests because he loves his wife and children and wants to stay on, the consequences can be pretty drastic. In verse 6 the master is directed to "Bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever". This is all repeated with some minor alteration in Deuteronomy 15:16-17. Here the master is told to "Do likewise to your maid slaves." In Exodus 21:7-9 God even instructs men how they are to go about selling their own daughters into slavery. Here it is worth noting that many church officials including popes have owned slaves5.

Concerning family values, in Joel 3:8 God warns that, “I will sell your sons and your daughters to the Judians, and they shall in turn sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off.” In case you are still unconvinced, try 1 Tim. 6:1-2; “Let slaves regard their masters as worthy of all honor." Matthew 10:24 and John 13:16 remind us that slaves are never better than their masters. Women take note that in Titus 2:9-10 slaves are ordered to, “Be submissive to your master and give satisfaction in every respect." Also check Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22 which say, “Slaves obey your master." Of the venerated Ten Commandments, numbers four and ten recognize and therefore give tacit approval to slavery. In fact, neither the Old or New Testament contains an outright condemnation of this infamous institution.

In Genesis 3:16 God decrees that as a result of the “fall” the wife will henceforth be ruled over by her husband thereby relegating women to the status of a slave. This second class status for women is reinforced throughout the Bible. Although somewhat offset in Ephesians 5:25 where husbands are told to love their wives, there is an unresolved contradiction here. The question remains: How can a master truly love his slave - and just as important - how can a slave truly love her master? The biblically mandated husband/wife relationship breads nothing but resentment, contempt and hatred.

The Church, particularly in Central and South America, supported the enslavement of native inhabitants. Based on a 1493 papal Bull, Spanish jurist Encisco claimed in 15096, “The king has every right to send his men to the Indians to demand the territory from these idolaters because he had received it from the pope. If the Indians refuse, he may quite legally enslave them, just a Joshua enslaved the Canaanites.” As justification for this action, Leviticus 25:44-46 is cited. It reads: “Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.”

What did Jesus have to say about slavery? Well, in the cherished Sermon of the Mount, allegedly given by him and recognized as a prescription for Christian living, the institution of slavery, so prevalent at the time, is never mentioned. However, in Matthew 8:5-13 Jesus heals the Roman centurion's slave while praising the centurion for his exemplary faithfulness. Why didn't Jesus seize this opportunity to condemn slavery and forbid it? In Luke 12:47, the parable of the faithful and unfaithful slave, Jesus even recommends the beating of slaves. But the most astounding pro-slavery statement in the Bible is made by Jesus himself in Matthew 10:24-25. Here Jesus not only reminds slaves that they are never above their master, he actually recommends that they strive to be like him.

Throughout the gospels Jesus ignores countless opportunities to condemn slavery. Another good example is the parable of the ten pound (Luke 19:11-27). Here we read how while visiting at the house of Zacchaeus, the rich tax collector, Jesus ceases upon the opportunity to lecture us on the proper technique of profitable money investment. In verse 27 the greedy, wicked nobleman tells his slaves, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Instead of condemning such a display of wanton cruelty and intolerance as he should have Jesus simply ignores it and goes on with his money-saving lecture thereby passing up another opportunity to register his condemnation of slavery.

Paul, the earliest Christian evangelist and a contemporary of Jesus, expresses his unqualified support of the institution of human slavery by instructing slaves to obey their masters in several passages, Ephesians 6:5, I Timothy 6:1 and again in Titus 2:9-10.

What are some other Bible commentaries concerning slavery? Peter, Jesus' favorite disciple, directs slaves to obey and fear their master without question, even though he may be cruel and unjust (1 Peter 2:18). This directive is repeated in Ephesians 6:5. In Exodus 21:26-27 and Proverbs 29:19 God tells the masters how to punish their slaves. In Leviticus 25:44-46 God instructs his chosen people on how to treat their slaves. Here he sets a more lenient standard for the Israelite slaves than for those who are not Israelites. But, God is not totally without a sense of justice because in Exodus 21:20-21 he says that if the master beats a slave to death, the master shall be punished. If, however, the severely beaten slave lingers on for a day or two, the master is off the hook. God says in Exodus 21:28-32 that if an ox gores a slave, the ox's owner shall give the slave master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned to death. In Deuteronomy 20:13-14 God tells the Israelites what they should do with the inhabitants of a conquered city, "Whereas the men must be killed, the women and children are to be taken as the spoils of war." Presumably that gives the Israelites the green light to sell them into slavery.

Those among us who remain dedicated to the Bible, especially African Americans, should realize that while it may be morally correct in some cases, the Bible's unrelenting endorsement of slavery is certainly immoral. Now, some Bible apologists have been quick to point out to me those verses such as Colossians 4:1directing the slave owner to be kind to his slaves. I would just remind them that regardless of whether the master is sweet and gentle or mean and cruel the slave is still a slave and therefore is bereft of freedom and stripped of human dignity. In the final analysis it is the liberal secular state, not the Bible, which we have to thank for ending slavery. Also, it is the liberal secular state, not the church, which stands as the guarantor of freedom and human rights. The truth is that human rights were (and are being) achieved today not because of the Bible but in spite of it.
_______________________________________________

1 Compiled by Louis W. Cable

2 Franklin, John H., From Slavery to Freedom - A History of Negro Americans, Vintage Books, 1969, page 49.

3 Ibid, page 71.

4 Rowland, Dunbar; Jefferson Davis, vol. 1, page 286.

5 Spong, John S., The Sins of Scripture, Harper San Francisco, 2--5, pg.155.

6 Ellerbe, Helen, The Dark Side of Christian History, Morningstar Books, page 90.

voicelesscharlie · 7 november 2006, 14:44

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door drosophila

Ostyn, het zou voor u nochtans zeer simpel zijn iedereen hier de mond te snoeren: toon aan dat dankzij de Katholieke Kerk(1) de slavernij reeds in de middeleeuwen(2) is uitgeroeid.

Het is niet de katholieke kerk die dat heeft gedaan maar zij waren ook niet uitsluitend verantwoordelijk voor de slavernij.
Zo hadden de moslims ook een bloeiende handel in (blanke)slaven(innen) en in sommige landen nu nog steeds.

drosophila · 7 november 2006, 16:57

Citaat:

Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door voicelesscharlie

Het is niet de katholieke kerk die dat heeft gedaan maar zij waren ook niet uitsluitend verantwoordelijk voor de slavernij.
Zo hadden de moslims ook een bloeiende handel in (blanke)slaven(innen) en in sommige landen nu nog steeds.

Klopt. Maar deze discussie is gekaderd in de kwestie van het al dan niet vermelden van Christelijke waarden in de Europese grondwet.
Ik gun u uw pathologische islam-bashing, maar alhier is dat compleet off-topic.

6 november 2006, 16:09	#147
drosophila Eur. Commissievoorzitter Geregistreerd: 25 oktober 2005 Locatie: Galaxias Kyklos Berichten: 9.724	Ter Info SLAVERY and the BIBLE1 Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty - - 2 Corinthians 3:17 Louis W. Cable There is no morality outside of the Holy Bible! We hear this cliché repeated ad nauseam by Bible believers. But is the Bible itself morally flawed? Take for example the institution of human slavery perhaps the most degrading form of social subordination. Could anything be more immoral than the buying and selling of fellow human beings into a hopeless life of involuntary servitude? What does the Bible have to say about it? Well, we'll see. But first, let us briefly review the history of slavery in the United States of America. The importation of African slaves into the New World began shortly after Columbus’ famous “discovery” in 1492. In 1517 the Bishop of Las Casas, a high official in the Roman Catholic Church, encouraged immigration to the New World by permitting Spaniards to import twelve Negroes each2. So Christianity and African slaves were introduced into the New World at about the same time. In what was later to become the United States of America it begin in 1619 when twenty Africans were off loaded from a Dutch ship at Jamestown, Virginia and sold into slavery3. From these humble beginnings the slave trade blossomed into a hugely profitable venture for the slave traders. Many of our revered founding fathers were slave owners. George Washington, the father of our country, owned slaves as did the great Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence. Patrick Henry, the great orator who coined the famous slogan, “Give me liberty or give me death,” was, ironically enough, a slave owner. The slaver trade was recognized as a legitimate commercial enterprise, and slave markets operated openly. The rights of slave owners were protected by law while the slave, of course, had no rights. Although President Lincoln's famous Emancipation Proclamation became effective on January 1,1863, slavery did not officially end in this country until the thirteenth amendment to the U. S. Constitution was finally ratified on December 6,1865. Slavery was legal in the United States for almost two hundred and fifty years. Why so long? Isn’t this a Christian nation founded on God’s word, the Holy Bible? That’s what many Christians tell me. Well, if that’s so, maybe that’s where the rub comes in because the Bible not only condones slavery, it actually encourages that cruel institution and has, in fact, been effectively used to promote and preserve it. Here, for example, is a quote from Jefferson Davis, the first and only president of the Confederacy, "It (slavery) was established by decree of Almighty God and is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments from Genesis to Revelation4." President Davis was right. God approves of slavery. In Exodus 21 the guidelines for the buying, selling and treatment of slaves is given. God says in verse 4 that if a male slave marries, his wife and children shall remain with the master when the slave departs because technically speaking they belong to the master. How's that for family values? Now if the slave is imprudent enough to protests because he loves his wife and children and wants to stay on, the consequences can be pretty drastic. In verse 6 the master is directed to "Bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever". This is all repeated with some minor alteration in Deuteronomy 15:16-17. Here the master is told to "Do likewise to your maid slaves." In Exodus 21:7-9 God even instructs men how they are to go about selling their own daughters into slavery. Here it is worth noting that many church officials including popes have owned slaves5. Concerning family values, in Joel 3:8 God warns that, “I will sell your sons and your daughters to the Judians, and they shall in turn sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off.” In case you are still unconvinced, try 1 Tim. 6:1-2; “Let slaves regard their masters as worthy of all honor." Matthew 10:24 and John 13:16 remind us that slaves are never better than their masters. Women take note that in Titus 2:9-10 slaves are ordered to, “Be submissive to your master and give satisfaction in every respect." Also check Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22 which say, “Slaves obey your master." Of the venerated Ten Commandments, numbers four and ten recognize and therefore give tacit approval to slavery. In fact, neither the Old or New Testament contains an outright condemnation of this infamous institution. In Genesis 3:16 God decrees that as a result of the “fall” the wife will henceforth be ruled over by her husband thereby relegating women to the status of a slave. This second class status for women is reinforced throughout the Bible. Although somewhat offset in Ephesians 5:25 where husbands are told to love their wives, there is an unresolved contradiction here. The question remains: How can a master truly love his slave - and just as important - how can a slave truly love her master? The biblically mandated husband/wife relationship breads nothing but resentment, contempt and hatred. The Church, particularly in Central and South America, supported the enslavement of native inhabitants. Based on a 1493 papal Bull, Spanish jurist Encisco claimed in 15096, “The king has every right to send his men to the Indians to demand the territory from these idolaters because he had received it from the pope. If the Indians refuse, he may quite legally enslave them, just a Joshua enslaved the Canaanites.” As justification for this action, Leviticus 25:44-46 is cited. It reads: “Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.” What did Jesus have to say about slavery? Well, in the cherished Sermon of the Mount, allegedly given by him and recognized as a prescription for Christian living, the institution of slavery, so prevalent at the time, is never mentioned. However, in Matthew 8:5-13 Jesus heals the Roman centurion's slave while praising the centurion for his exemplary faithfulness. Why didn't Jesus seize this opportunity to condemn slavery and forbid it? In Luke 12:47, the parable of the faithful and unfaithful slave, Jesus even recommends the beating of slaves. But the most astounding pro-slavery statement in the Bible is made by Jesus himself in Matthew 10:24-25. Here Jesus not only reminds slaves that they are never above their master, he actually recommends that they strive to be like him. Throughout the gospels Jesus ignores countless opportunities to condemn slavery. Another good example is the parable of the ten pound (Luke 19:11-27). Here we read how while visiting at the house of Zacchaeus, the rich tax collector, Jesus ceases upon the opportunity to lecture us on the proper technique of profitable money investment. In verse 27 the greedy, wicked nobleman tells his slaves, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Instead of condemning such a display of wanton cruelty and intolerance as he should have Jesus simply ignores it and goes on with his money-saving lecture thereby passing up another opportunity to register his condemnation of slavery. Paul, the earliest Christian evangelist and a contemporary of Jesus, expresses his unqualified support of the institution of human slavery by instructing slaves to obey their masters in several passages, Ephesians 6:5, I Timothy 6:1 and again in Titus 2:9-10. What are some other Bible commentaries concerning slavery? Peter, Jesus' favorite disciple, directs slaves to obey and fear their master without question, even though he may be cruel and unjust (1 Peter 2:18). This directive is repeated in Ephesians 6:5. In Exodus 21:26-27 and Proverbs 29:19 God tells the masters how to punish their slaves. In Leviticus 25:44-46 God instructs his chosen people on how to treat their slaves. Here he sets a more lenient standard for the Israelite slaves than for those who are not Israelites. But, God is not totally without a sense of justice because in Exodus 21:20-21 he says that if the master beats a slave to death, the master shall be punished. If, however, the severely beaten slave lingers on for a day or two, the master is off the hook. God says in Exodus 21:28-32 that if an ox gores a slave, the ox's owner shall give the slave master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned to death. In Deuteronomy 20:13-14 God tells the Israelites what they should do with the inhabitants of a conquered city, "Whereas the men must be killed, the women and children are to be taken as the spoils of war." Presumably that gives the Israelites the green light to sell them into slavery. Those among us who remain dedicated to the Bible, especially African Americans, should realize that while it may be morally correct in some cases, the Bible's unrelenting endorsement of slavery is certainly immoral. Now, some Bible apologists have been quick to point out to me those verses such as Colossians 4:1directing the slave owner to be kind to his slaves. I would just remind them that regardless of whether the master is sweet and gentle or mean and cruel the slave is still a slave and therefore is bereft of freedom and stripped of human dignity. In the final analysis it is the liberal secular state, not the Bible, which we have to thank for ending slavery. Also, it is the liberal secular state, not the church, which stands as the guarantor of freedom and human rights. The truth is that human rights were (and are being) achieved today not because of the Bible but in spite of it. _______________________________________________ 1 Compiled by Louis W. Cable 2 Franklin, John H., From Slavery to Freedom - A History of Negro Americans, Vintage Books, 1969, page 49. 3 Ibid, page 71. 4 Rowland, Dunbar; Jefferson Davis, vol. 1, page 286. 5 Spong, John S., The Sins of Scripture, Harper San Francisco, 2--5, pg.155. 6 Ellerbe, Helen, The Dark Side of Christian History, Morningstar Books, page 90.

5 november 2006, 23:40	#142
drosophila Eur. Commissievoorzitter Geregistreerd: 25 oktober 2005 Locatie: Galaxias Kyklos Berichten: 9.724	http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm

6 november 2006, 10:15	#145
Bovenbuur Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN Geregistreerd: 16 oktober 2006 Locatie: Stiekem toch weer bovenbuur Berichten: 15.486	Cultuur is iets levends, het is belachelijk om ergens vast te leggen wat de 'heersende' cultuur is, hoe je daar mee om moet gaan en wat je er allemaal aan moet doen. De wereld ziet er nu heel anders uit dan een aantal decennia geleden, en over een paar decenia lachen we weer om hoe het nu was (denk bijvoorbeeld aan een soort 'grease' in 'urban' stijl). Cultuur is niet vast te leggen, dus waarom zou je dat willen?