Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe

Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe


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Gidon Van Emden, THE JERUSALEM POST Oct. 12, 2006

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The results are in. The extreme right Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest or
VB) did not capture Antwerp's city hall. Meanwhile, the center-right
Flemish Liberals and Democrats of Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt lost
throughout the country, while the Socialist Party in Wallonia hung on,
contrary to many predictions.

But is the outcome really a victory for the democratic parties, as those
who consistently block the VB out of coalitions are called? Or was it a
Pyrrhic victory, as VB leader Filip Dewinter said on Sunday evening as
the results became clear?

A look at Antwerp, Belgium's second city with the country's largest
Orthodox community, shows that there are no easy answers, especially for
the Jewish community. With the notable exception of Claude Marinower, the
openly Jewish council member who regularly decries the situation, the
mainstream parties, including the current coalition of socialists,
liberals and Greens, have done too little to combat the anti-Semitism and
racism that are still found here.

Campaigning for a "Livable Antwerp," the VB seems like an alternative.
Using an excellent communications strategy, the party stands for a
Flanders that is closed to immigrants, creating a better atmosphere for
everyone. Moreover, playing into people's fears, the party is openly
anti-Muslim. Dewinter, in a now-famous interview last year with the New
York Jewish Week, claimed the VB espoused Islamophobia.

In fact, the party's predecessor, Vlaams Blok (Flemish Bloc), was banned
in 2004 for incitement to hate and discrimination. Meanwhile and
surprisingly, Dewinter has done a fabulous job of looking respectable to
the Jews, taking consistently pro-Israel stances and creating good
contacts with certain rabbis in the community.

And indeed, looking closely at the results, the elections seem to have
been more about marketing than anything else. Dewinter's charm offensive
seems to have worked. And others are catching on.

In cities such as Ghent and Mechelen, where the VB was the largest party
on the city council before the elections but shut out from the coalition,
mainstream mayors have campaigned hard to become better known. And in
both these cities, they were reelected and the VB did not gain seats.

SOCIALIST MAYOR Patrick Janssens of Antwerp, where Dewinter hoped to
become mayor by gaining an absolute majority, increased his party by 10
council seats, flying past the VB, which was the largest party before the
elections. Though the VB didn't lose any seats - the 10 gained came from
the liberals and Greens, Janssens's coalition partners - neither did they
win.

Janssens's background is in marketing. He came to the mayoralty from the
advertising world. Upon election, his pledge was to communicate better
and to connect better to "de Antwerpenaars" - the citizens of his city.

This he has done. And his efforts are bearing fruit. Using American-style
techniques, he kept people up-to-date on what is happening in the city.
He organized regular cultural events to indemnify citizens for the
seemingly constant construction and related disruptions. In a country
where voting is mandatory, he ran on a personal campaign for mayor. And
he got reelected on it, too.

Has he, however, solved the problems of the Jewish community? Not really,
according to the Forum of Jewish Organizations, a Jewish umbrella group
based in Antwerp. The Jewish community still witnesses anti-Semitism and
choosing whom to vote for was not easy at all, according to Nadine
Iarchy, a board member of the forum: "The democratic parties have done
little to combat anti-Semitism, while the Vlaams Belang actively reaches
out and presents itself as an alternative."

Only last week, students from a local yeshiva were attacked again. This
was the fourth attack on students of this institution alone. Last May,
Antwerp witnessed the murder of a woman from Mali by a skinhead. The baby
in her care also died in the attack. Anti-Semitic graffiti are seen
regularly. Racist violence has not been curbed by the current coalition,
there is too little attention to the combating racism and anti-Semitism
in the Flemish educational system, and the Jewish community feels unsafe.

To add insult to injury, the voting took place on Sunday, the second day
of Succot, and there was no other option for observant Jews than to give
a proxy form to trusted non-Jews. The only party that systematically went
around collecting those forms was the VB.

Now, the forum's secretary-general, Diane Keyser, says that it is unclear
what will happen next, and how a new coalition might impact the situation
of the Jewish community.

What is clear, however, is that the Jewish community trusts the
complacent "democratic parties" no more than the Vlaams Belang. Obliged
by law to vote, forced to choose between two evils, we feel ourselves
stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The writer is the policy officer at CEJI - A Jewish Contribution to an
Inclusive Europe.


--

Hello Sir,

I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams
Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist
roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his pro-nazi
preferrences.

The fact that the Jewish press naively listens to Dewinter's statements
is pathetic.

Even if the traditional parties seem to be unable to find a solution to
the current society problems, looking towards the Blok is stupid. If
you do expect that Extremists parties will favor your community after
they are elected, "vous vous foutez le doigt dans l'oeil"

Je suis d'accord que la communauté juive ne se sente pas �* l'aise
mais elle n'a pas le monopole du malaise... La nounou malienne
assassinée en mai l'était par un sympathisant du Blok apparemment.
Alors si on tolère que le Blok prenne le pouvoir pour assurer
tranquilité aux Juifs au détriment des immigrés dans leur ensemble,
c'est moi qui suis mal �* l'aise. La tranquilité est un droit dont
tout le monde doit bénéficier.

Cordialement,


BOLUDOVSKY wrote:
> Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pan gerwazy schreef:

> not) propaganda since July 1950. Only a limited number of his thousands

July 2005, of course. Slip off the console. Hm - my sister was born
that year.

marioleoz schreef:

> Hello Sir,
>
> I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams
> Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist
> roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his pro-nazi
> preferrences.
>
> The fact that the Jewish press naively listens to Dewinter's statements
> is pathetic.
>
> Even if the traditional parties seem to be unable to find a solution to
> the current society problems, looking towards the Blok is stupid. If
> you do expect that Extremists parties will favor your community after
> they are elected, "vous vous foutez le doigt dans l'oeil"
>
> Je suis d'accord que la communauté juive ne se sente pas �* l'aise
> mais elle n'a pas le monopole du malaise... La nounou malienne
> assassinée en mai l'était par un sympathisant du Blok apparemment.
> Alors si on tolère que le Blok prenne le pouvoir pour assurer
> tranquilité aux Juifs au détriment des immigrés dans leur ensemble,
> c'est moi qui suis mal �* l'aise. La tranquilité est un droit dont
> tout le monde doit bénéficier.
>
> Cordialement,
>
>
No use. The guy pretends to be studying for his MBA in Brussels. He has
spammed Spanish and Argentine news groups with nazi Jewish (I kid you
not) propaganda since July 1950. Only a limited number of his thousands
of messages was not a copy of some newspaper article. As for his
original posts, I wonder if he knows that under Belgian law he could be
sued for claiming Bill Clinton was a pedophile. So, in short, "DO NOT
FEED THE TROLLS".

--
Greetings from Ghent, the most beautiful place in Belgium

"marioleoz" <[email protected]> dixit:

> Hello Sir,
>
> I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams
> Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist
> roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his
> pro-nazi preferrences.

Better VB than sharia.

BOLUDOVSKY



--

BOLUDOVSKY schreef:

> "marioleoz" <[email protected]> dixit:
>
> > Hello Sir,
> >
> > I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams
> > Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist
> > roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his
> > pro-nazi preferrences.
>
> Better VB than sharia.
>
> BOLUDOVSKY

Don't live in the naive belief that, after VB has "solved" problems
with the muslim community, they won't be looking for another minority
which could be the "common enemy" they need for their fear tactics.

Jewish representatives in Antwerp have been *very* careful to keep the
necessary distance between themselves and Vlaams Belang. Especially
since Vlaams Belang feels to put any kind of reasonable distance
between themselves and violent neo-nazi organisations such as Blood &
Honour. I'm sure most Jewish living in Antwerp are more then just a bit
concerned about VB's recent successes (although it looks like it has
slowed down).

Your logic would be a lot more acceptable if you could point out one
Jewish person on the election lists of Vlaams Belang. Other parties
(socialist, liberal, ...) have Jewish on them. Just in Antwerp I can
name, out of the top of my head, Marinower from VLD (liberal party) and
Erdman from Sp.a (socialist party).
Now you give me one Jewish man or woman on the list of Vlaams belang.
Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community
trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that
together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government.

A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese
woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a
Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams
Belang?

Dimitri

marioleoz schreef:

> Hello Sir,
>
> I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams
> Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist
> roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his pro-nazi
> preferrences.
>
> The fact that the Jewish press naively listens to Dewinter's statements
> is pathetic.
>
> Even if the traditional parties seem to be unable to find a solution to
> the current society problems, looking towards the Blok is stupid. If
> you do expect that Extremists parties will favor your community after
> they are elected, "vous vous foutez le doigt dans l'oeil"
>
> Je suis d'accord que la communauté juive ne se sente pas �* l'aise
> mais elle n'a pas le monopole du malaise... La nounou malienne
> assassinée en mai l'était par un sympathisant du Blok apparemment.
> Alors si on tolère que le Blok prenne le pouvoir pour assurer
> tranquilité aux Juifs au détriment des immigrés dans leur ensemble,
> c'est moi qui suis mal �* l'aise. La tranquilité est un droit dont
> tout le monde doit bénéficier.
>
> Cordialement,
>
>
> BOLUDOVSKY wrote:
> > Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is true, but not in the
case of Vlaams Belang and the Jewish.

"theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:

> Don't live in the naive belief that, after VB has "solved" problems
> with the muslim community, they won't be looking for another minority
> which could be the "common enemy" they need for their fear tactics.

I am not sure what the VB will do once he "solves" the Muslim "problem".
Will they turn on the Jews? I don't think they'll be so foolish.

First of all, Jews in Anterwp don't pose any problem, and most Flemish
recognize that. Do you think the average Antwerper is scared when he
crosses a Haredi man in the street? And when he crosses an inmigrant (Arab)
youth?

> Your logic would be a lot more acceptable if you could point out one
> Jewish person on the election lists of Vlaams Belang. Other parties
> (socialist, liberal, ...) have Jewish on them. Just in Antwerp I can
> name, out of the top of my head, Marinower from VLD (liberal party) and
> Erdman from Sp.a (socialist party).
> Now you give me one Jewish man or woman on the list of Vlaams belang.

I don't think ethnic vote has any appeal for Jews. Most of the Jews of
Antwerp are Haredim (ultra-orthodox). They live in their own world.

> Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community
> trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that
> together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government.

When you are called "dirty Jew" by Muslims in the supermarket, when you
have to avoid some neighbourhoods in your own city, when due to the
Islamization of Belgian society your future looks very bleak, VB turns out
to be the least of your worries.

> A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese
> woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a
> Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams
> Belang?

Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death
by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish
yeshiva student was stabbed to death?

Better VB than sharia.

Better VB than crooks.

BOLUDOVSKY




--

BOLUDOVSKY schreef:

> "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:
> > A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese
> > woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a
> > Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams
> > Belang?
>
> Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death
> by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish
> yeshiva student was stabbed to death?
>
> Better VB than sharia.
>
> Better VB than crooks.
>
> BOLUDOVSKY

Gekke Khan goes international! En daarnet heeft hij in een Spaanse
nieuwsgroep gepost dat het nog niet zeker is dat de Baskische ETA niets
te maken heeft met de aanslag in Madrid!!! Dat zal hem zeker erg
populair maken bij het VB in Antwerpen.

--
"And I still see their faces ..." http://www.shalom.org.pl/eng/index.htm

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> > Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community
> > trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that
> > together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government.
>
> When you are called "dirty Jew" by Muslims in the supermarket, when you
> have to avoid some neighbourhoods in your own city, when due to the
> Islamization of Belgian society your future looks very bleak, VB turns out
> to be the least of your worries.
>

Not correct: then VB turns out your only friend because all others look the
other way, deny that something went wrong, even claim that you are the cause.

"Friend" of the Jewish community is a titel worth real money: Antwerp Jews are
among the sponsors of the VB, even now when gifts are not deductable any more.
If a Jew gives you money, there is trust and a reason.

All the hatred is linked to VB, but the few Jews so badly beaten up in Antwerp
that it coudn't stay out of the papers, were the victims of Muslims. Jewish
holocaust momuments in Antwerp and Brussels were vandalised by Muslims "youth".

As a Belgian -even an uniformed policeman- it is better to stay out of certain
areas of Antwerp / Brussels after dark, as a recognisable Jew going there
equals a death certificate.

I am not a Jew and I don't favour nor discriminate them. Some of my clients are
Jews.

I can state from owm experience that I still have to live the day where a
member of the VB spit me in the face, I had that allready with a Morrocan. I
still have to live the day that a VB-voter drives his car into mine and hasn't
drivers licence nor insurance, I had that on 3 occasions with Arabs.

Finally I have never been attacked of been victim of robbery by people linked
to VB whereas North-Africans saw me as a easy target some 10 times.



> > A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese
> > woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a
> > Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams
> > Belang?
>
> Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death
> by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish
> yeshiva student was stabbed to death?
>
> Better VB than sharia.

Better still: apply Sharia on those who claim it to be their heritage, their
present and their future. If they don't like it here, that they bugger off:
even in their former home-countries there are masses who are certain that
coming to the West is winning the lottery big time.

When are we going to see parties like SPa, CD&V and VLD going to Marokko and
saying there loud and clear that Maroccans who will not integrate in Western
society should stay where they are and develop their own country?

I was in London yesterday: if you want a working society with all races
mingeling, there it is. And yett also there you have the veiled people, chador,
burka and worse; dividing everybody, imposing their own manners.

I was handsearched before boarding a plane, putting my shoes on a tray so that
they could be scanned. I accept it without comment. A black clothed bitch with
only the eyes uncovered screams the whole terminal together and causes a delay
because she doesn't allow the security procedures to be executed.

Oh yes: I am not the most tolerate one, I definitely hate people making
problems. For my part this "madame" should be escorted away and given a swift
kick aimed at the lower back region on the way out.

Tom De Moor

BOLUDOVSKY schreef:

> "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:
>
> > Don't live in the naive belief that, after VB has "solved" problems
> > with the muslim community, they won't be looking for another minority
> > which could be the "common enemy" they need for their fear tactics.
>
> I am not sure what the VB will do once he "solves" the Muslim "problem".
> Will they turn on the Jews? I don't think they'll be so foolish.
>
> First of all, Jews in Anterwp don't pose any problem, and most Flemish
> recognize that. Do you think the average Antwerper is scared when he
> crosses a Haredi man in the street? And when he crosses an inmigrant (Arab)
> youth?

Do you think German's in '32 were scared of Jewish robbing their purses
and stealing their cars? Probably not.

Once Jewish are the only minority left in Antwerp there will *alwys* be
people that will, for their own interests, make the Jewish look bad.

> > Your logic would be a lot more acceptable if you could point out one
> > Jewish person on the election lists of Vlaams Belang. Other parties
> > (socialist, liberal, ...) have Jewish on them. Just in Antwerp I can
> > name, out of the top of my head, Marinower from VLD (liberal party) and
> > Erdman from Sp.a (socialist party).
> > Now you give me one Jewish man or woman on the list of Vlaams belang.
>
> I don't think ethnic vote has any appeal for Jews. Most of the Jews of
> Antwerp are Haredim (ultra-orthodox). They live in their own world.

There are clearly Jewish that do "not live in their own world" and that
are interested in politics in Belgium. None of them are on the list of
VB's though.

At the same time guys like Erdman and Gol were actually the presidents
of their respecitve political parties (sp.a and MR). They were more
then just a little involved in Belgian politics.

Yet you fail to give me even one name, one measly name, of a Jewish
person on the list of Vlaams Belang. Not one, in the whole of Belgium.


Jewish people in Belgium seem to be a *lot* more knowledgable on Vlaams
Belang then you are.

> > Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community
> > trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that
> > together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government.
>
> When you are called "dirty Jew" by Muslims in the supermarket, when you
> have to avoid some neighbourhoods in your own city, when due to the
> Islamization of Belgian society your future looks very bleak, VB turns out
> to be the least of your worries.

Actually most anti-Jewish violence that makes the newspapers are
attacks by Belgian neo-nazis, not attacks from Muslims. But, don't
believe me, read some independent source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3586543.stm

Quote: "The study singles out Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands
and Britain, where it says the rise in anti-Semitism has been of
particular concern. Other countries, including Ireland and Portugal,
showed little sign of any rise in attacks, the report says. It
identifies "young, disaffected white Europeans" as the key culprits
followed by North African or Asian Muslims."

Most dangerous incidents do not involve Arabs, but skinheads.

> > A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese
> > woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a
> > Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams
> > Belang?
>
> Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death
> by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish
> yeshiva student was stabbed to death?

Please tell me about this "murdered bus driver incident". I'd like to
know more of it. Give us some links.

With regard to the "Yeshiva" incident: the latest case in which a
Jewish person was attacked (not killed) by an Arab in Antwerp was in
2004? In a city with a high concentration of Jewish and Arabs that
doesn't really sound like these attacks are the order of the day.
Especially since the Yeshiva college is right next to an area where the
population consists of +/-90% Arabs.

But, at least you are aware that the adverb "democratic" is one of the
main differences between VB and other parties. You are aware, off
course, that VB believes that Flanders (as they do not recognise
Belgium, being separatists and all) should be ruled by the "natural
elite", and not by people elected by the population.

> Better VB than sharia.
>
> Better VB than crooks.

For me, being white and from Christian descent, you're probably right
on both accounts. For you, or other Jewish, I doubt that this would be
the case, especially on longer term.

Do you really want a local government filled with people that have ties
to violent extreme right organisations and of which a lot still have
ties to the Nazi's and East-fronters that fought for Hitler at the
Russian front?

You probably do, you didn't really convince me of being highly
intelligent. Luckily for you the Jewish community in Antwerp (and the
rest of Belgium) is quite a bit smarter and realistic.

Dimitri

"theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
>
> BOLUDOVSKY schreef:
>
>> "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:
>>
>> > Don't live in the naive belief that, after VB has "solved" problems
>> > with the muslim community, they won't be looking for another minority
>> > which could be the "common enemy" they need for their fear tactics.
>>
>> I am not sure what the VB will do once he "solves" the Muslim "problem".
>> Will they turn on the Jews? I don't think they'll be so foolish.
>>
>> First of all, Jews in Anterwp don't pose any problem, and most Flemish
>> recognize that. Do you think the average Antwerper is scared when he
>> crosses a Haredi man in the street? And when he crosses an inmigrant
>> (Arab)
>> youth?
>
> Do you think German's in '32 were scared of Jewish robbing their purses
> and stealing their cars? Probably not.

They were worried about them destroying the country financially.
>
> Once Jewish are the only minority left in Antwerp there will *alwys* be
> people that will, for their own interests, make the Jewish look bad.

They don't need any help. It's a genetic thing with them.

In article <[email protected]>,
Benjie <benjie@y'allknowbynow.com.> wrote:

(drivel snipped)

Stop ranting, doper.

"my younger Brother got me absolutely stoned on magic mushrooms.
I spent three days sitting in the corner of the tent waiting to come
down." -- the neo-Nazi "Ben Cramer" reflects on his usage of
hallucinatory drugs. Source:
Message-ID: <1125123267.5e5d281ad88798917af26011bcb01dc0@teran ews>

RJ.

"theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:

> Do you think German's in '32 were scared of Jewish robbing their
> purses and stealing their cars? Probably not.

So what? The nazis didn't disappoint anyone. They carried out the
program laid out by Hitler in "Mein Kampf".

OTOH, Nazi propaganda usually portrayed Jews either as wealthy
capitalists exploiting Germans or vulgar criminals.

> Once Jewish are the only minority left in Antwerp there will *alwys*
> be people that will, for their own interests, make the Jewish look
> bad.

OK. Then it will be time to move to Israel. As a Zionist, voting VB
works both ways:

1. it sends a clear signal to our Muslim enemies: get the hell outta here

2. it scares the shit out of the Jewish lefties who, otherwise, wouldn't
have envisaged moving to Israel

> Yet you fail to give me even one name, one measly name, of a Jewish
> person on the list of Vlaams Belang. Not one, in the whole of Belgium.

So what? If VB works in the Jewish interest, Jews will vote for it. I am
curious to know the last election results in downtown Antwerp.

> Most dangerous incidents do not involve Arabs, but skinheads.

I haven't seen a skinhead in Antwerp for years.

> Please tell me about this "murdered bus driver incident". I'd like to
> know more of it. Give us some links.

http://www.hln.be/hlns/cache/det/art_225589.html

http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_m...details/060627
_busmurder/index.shtml

>
> With regard to the "Yeshiva" incident: the latest case in which a
> Jewish person was attacked (not killed) by an Arab in Antwerp was in
> 2004?

No. He was killed. Two years ago.

Murder of British Jew heightens racial tensions in Belgium
Independent, The (London), Nov 19, 2004 by Stephen Castle in Antwerp

A BRITISH orthodox Jew and aide to a local rabbi was shot dead in Antwerp
yesterday, heightening racial tensions in Belgium's second city after
recent turbulence in neighbouring Netherlands.

> But, at least you are aware that the adverb "democratic" is one of the
> main differences between VB and other parties. You are aware, off
> course, that VB believes that Flanders (as they do not recognise
> Belgium, being separatists and all) should be ruled by the "natural
> elite", and not by people elected by the population.

No. I am not aware of that, "off" course. Sounds like the usual anti-VB
scaremongering.

> Do you really want a local government filled with people that have
> ties to violent extreme right organisations and of which a lot still
> have ties to the Nazi's and East-fronters that fought for Hitler at
> the Russian front?

When your way of life is in danger and you feel threatened, what
happened 60 years ago becomes a secondary issue. We are in 2006. Belgium
and the whole of Europe is being invaded by Arab/Muslims. Only a few are
reacting, VB among them. As long as I stay in Belgium, they have my vote.



BOLUDOVSKY

--

Tom De Moor schreef:

> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> >
> > > Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community
> > > trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that
> > > together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government.
> >
> > When you are called "dirty Jew" by Muslims in the supermarket, when you
> > have to avoid some neighbourhoods in your own city, when due to the
> > Islamization of Belgian society your future looks very bleak, VB turns out
> > to be the least of your worries.
> >
>
> Not correct: then VB turns out your only friend because all others look the
> other way, deny that something went wrong, even claim that you are the cause.
>
> "Friend" of the Jewish community is a titel worth real money: Antwerp Jews are
> among the sponsors of the VB, even now when gifts are not deductable any more.
> If a Jew gives you money, there is trust and a reason.
>
> All the hatred is linked to VB, but the few Jews so badly beaten up in Antwerp
> that it coudn't stay out of the papers, were the victims of Muslims. Jewish
> holocaust momuments in Antwerp and Brussels were vandalised by Muslims "youth".
>
> As a Belgian -even an uniformed policeman- it is better to stay out of certain
> areas of Antwerp / Brussels after dark, as a recognisable Jew going there
> equals a death certificate.
>
> I am not a Jew and I don't favour nor discriminate them. Some of my clients are
> Jews.
>
> I can state from owm experience that I still have to live the day where a
> member of the VB spit me in the face, I had that allready with a Morrocan. I
> still have to live the day that a VB-voter drives his car into mine and hasn't
> drivers licence nor insurance, I had that on 3 occasions with Arabs.
>
> Finally I have never been attacked of been victim of robbery by people linked
> to VB whereas North-Africans saw me as a easy target some 10 times.
>
>
>
> > > A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese
> > > woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a
> > > Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams
> > > Belang?
> >
> > Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death
> > by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish
> > yeshiva student was stabbed to death?
> >
> > Better VB than sharia.
>
> Better still: apply Sharia on those who claim it to be their heritage, their
> present and their future. If they don't like it here, that they bugger off:
> even in their former home-countries there are masses who are certain that
> coming to the West is winning the lottery big time.
>
> When are we going to see parties like SPa, CD&V and VLD going to Marokko and
> saying there loud and clear that Maroccans who will not integrate in Western
> society should stay where they are and develop their own country?
>
> I was in London yesterday: if you want a working society with all races
> mingeling, there it is. And yett also there you have the veiled people, chador,
> burka and worse; dividing everybody, imposing their own manners.
>
> I was handsearched before boarding a plane, putting my shoes on a tray so that
> they could be scanned. I accept it without comment. A black clothed bitch with
> only the eyes uncovered screams the whole terminal together and causes a delay
> because she doesn't allow the security procedures to be executed.
>
> Oh yes: I am not the most tolerate one, I definitely hate people making
> problems. For my part this "madame" should be escorted away and given a swift
> kick aimed at the lower back region on the way out.
>
> Tom De Moor

The only estimation I saw is that 5% of Jewish in Antwerp vote for
Vlaams belang (2005 data, this represents around 1.000 Jews). They are
far from massively voting for VB. For reference the number of Antwerp
citizens that voted for VB is over 30%.

The fact that some immigrants in Belgium (or elsewhere) are not always
fitting in and adapting, or that they are over-represented in crime
statistics does not make VB's programme, their links to hate groups and
their historic links to East-fronters right.

The only good thing VB does is give an indication of the problems that
are experienced by the population and that were, before the success of
VB, not recognised and addressed by the other parties. Just like the
Green party they should never be more then an opposition party, which
is, up to now, all they have ever been.

Everybody votes for the party he/she wants to, and I don't have a real
issue with VB as a part of democracy, they are entitled to their
opinion and they do bring forward actual problems that live with a
considerable part of the population. But if I were a Jewish person I'd
steer away from them as far as I could. Which seems, apart from those
5% apparently not so smart ones, to be the case. A party like VB will
always need an enemy.

Dimitri

BOLUDOVSKY schreef:

> "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:
>
> > Do you think German's in '32 were scared of Jewish robbing their
> > purses and stealing their cars? Probably not.
>
> So what? The nazis didn't disappoint anyone. They carried out the
> program laid out by Hitler in "Mein Kampf".
>
> OTOH, Nazi propaganda usually portrayed Jews either as wealthy
> capitalists exploiting Germans or vulgar criminals.
>
> > Once Jewish are the only minority left in Antwerp there will *alwys*
> > be people that will, for their own interests, make the Jewish look
> > bad.
>
> OK. Then it will be time to move to Israel. As a Zionist, voting VB
> works both ways:
>
> 1. it sends a clear signal to our Muslim enemies: get the hell outta here

Fight your wars with your Muslim ennemies at Israel's borders, will
you.

> 2. it scares the shit out of the Jewish lefties who, otherwise, wouldn't
> have envisaged moving to Israel

Yes, voting vor VB is a good idea because it scares your own people?
Sure.

> > Yet you fail to give me even one name, one measly name, of a Jewish
> > person on the list of Vlaams Belang. Not one, in the whole of Belgium.
>
> So what? If VB works in the Jewish interest, Jews will vote for it. I am
> curious to know the last election results in downtown Antwerp.

You're still coming short on one name. I gave three of Jewish
politicians that have operated in Antwerp and on a national level. You
gave me nothing.

If you lived in Antwerp you'd know. In any case, in this articla from
before the elections, the Jewish community didn't seem like they were
planning to vote for VB.

http://www.nysun.com/article/41178

Quote: "Wearing Orthodox black suits and Homburg hats, the men were
carrying palm fronds in honor of the feast of Sukkot, celebrated this
weekend. That festival meant it was forbidden for Jews to cast their
votes, Jeremy Sulzbacher said, unless they had organized a proxy vote.
"Vlaams Belang doesn't convince Jewish people," he said. "Once they've
finished with the Muslims and the North Africans, who will they start
on next? They'll start on us, the Jews."

> > Most dangerous incidents do not involve Arabs, but skinheads.
>
> I haven't seen a skinhead in Antwerp for years.

Then you don't walk around in Antwerp often.

> > Please tell me about this "murdered bus driver incident". I'd like to
> > know more of it. Give us some links.
>
> http://www.hln.be/hlns/cache/det/art_225589.html
>
> http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_m...details/060627
> _busmurder/index.shtml

This doesn't involve a bus driver, but a bus passenger. he was not
Jewish, but Belgian. There were no racial slurs before, during or after
the incident. If was a fight between an older guy that wanted some
young guys to be quite. The old guy died of a heart attack. Nothing
indicates that there were any racial motives involved.

> >
> > With regard to the "Yeshiva" incident: the latest case in which a
> > Jewish person was attacked (not killed) by an Arab in Antwerp was in
> > 2004?
>
> No. He was killed. Two years ago.
>
> Murder of British Jew heightens racial tensions in Belgium
> Independent, The (London), Nov 19, 2004 by Stephen Castle in Antwerp
>
> A BRITISH orthodox Jew and aide to a local rabbi was shot dead in Antwerp
> yesterday, heightening racial tensions in Belgium's second city after
> recent turbulence in neighbouring Netherlands.
>
> > But, at least you are aware that the adverb "democratic" is one of the
> > main differences between VB and other parties. You are aware, off
> > course, that VB believes that Flanders (as they do not recognise
> > Belgium, being separatists and all) should be ruled by the "natural
> > elite", and not by people elected by the population.
>
> No. I am not aware of that, "off" course. Sounds like the usual anti-VB
> scaremongering.

Actually it is written down in their programme. Look on their site, and
look it up.

> > Do you really want a local government filled with people that have
> > ties to violent extreme right organisations and of which a lot still
> > have ties to the Nazi's and East-fronters that fought for Hitler at
> > the Russian front?
>
> When your way of life is in danger and you feel threatened, what
> happened 60 years ago becomes a secondary issue. We are in 2006. Belgium
> and the whole of Europe is being invaded by Arab/Muslims. Only a few are
> reacting, VB among them. As long as I stay in Belgium, they have my vote.

You are the first Jewish that I heard declaring that what happened
during WW2 is a "secondary issue". And the percentage of Arabs in
Antwerp (around 6,5%) is not that much higher then the number of Jewish
in Antwerp (around 4,5%). We are overrun by Jews as well I guess. You
might very well be the second largest religious minority group in
Antwerp. You're probably next on their list as well.

You are among the 5% of Jewish that vote for VB, I expected that. 95%
of your family and friends are smarter then you.

Dimitri

In article <[email protected] .com>,
[email protected] says...
>
> The only estimation I saw is that 5% of Jewish in Antwerp vote for
> Vlaams belang (2005 data, this represents around 1.000 Jews). They are
> far from massively voting for VB. For reference the number of Antwerp
> citizens that voted for VB is over 30%.

Untill now the voting prefence of Antwerp Jews is not known and I doubt a lot
if Jews are willing to let it known.

However: the funds donated to political parties -when this was autorised- are
known and the Jewish community gave a lot to the VB.

>
> The fact that some immigrants in Belgium (or elsewhere) are not always
> fitting in and adapting, or that they are over-represented in crime
> statistics does not make VB's programme, their links to hate groups and
> their historic links to East-fronters right.
>
First of all is WOII some 65 years ago and secondly the links of parties like
SPa (the Socialist Party) with totalitairan regimes (North-Korea, Cuba, etc)
are a lot tighter and more recent than any VB-link.

Furthermore -please know your history- the East-Fronters were heavily recruted
through the Catholic Church in order to fight communism. Even after the WOII
(when Belgium knew its first and only Communist ministers) these were pictured
as being of Devil's descent.


> The only good thing VB does is give an indication of the problems that
> are experienced by the population and that were, before the success of
> VB, not recognised and addressed by the other parties. Just like the
> Green party they should never be more then an opposition party, which
> is, up to now, all they have ever been.
>

If in a country where a party reprensenting 30% of its voting population is
needed to give an indication, than that means a lot as to its structures and as
to those in power.


> Everybody votes for the party he/she wants to, and I don't have a real
> issue with VB as a part of democracy, they are entitled to their
> opinion and they do bring forward actual problems that live with a
> considerable part of the population. But if I were a Jewish person I'd
> steer away from them as far as I could. Which seems, apart from those
> 5% apparently not so smart ones, to be the case. A party like VB will
> always need an enemy.

You analyse the position of the (Antwerp) Jews out of your perspectif but you
do not know either their situation nor their problems. Almost certain is that
you have never even spoken to an Antwerp Jew, a Jew in Israel or an Israeli;
yett you take the liberty to advice them on security issues.

Jews are not the most loved people through the ages and they have had more than
their share in prosecution. They came through on their own, against all odds
and by making their own decisions. I wouldn't classify somebody I don't know
but with a proven track record as "not so smart".

Just to mention one: Jewish schools *in Belgium* have armed police-officers
standing on duty. These guards are paid for by the Jewish community. They are
not there to protect the children from the intentions of VB.

Furthermore it is pretty clear that you picture the VB as the outcast, the
stupid ones, the crooked ones. Remind you that since the past elections (2
weeks ago!) a few politicians are now jailed and that none of them is VB. Do
you really want the list -again- of all those mainstream politicians, trialed
and convicted, for fraud, theft etc? As to the capabilities of those not
convicted: see the actual state of affairs.

Or should we take into account the real security situation -in Antwerp,
Brussels or Paris- which is constantly overruled by a state which political
caste has but the ambition to stay in power and which has clearly no clue as
how to respond to attacks on its own civilians?

We are in a system where the civilian may not protect himself, the State will
do that. Jews do not believe that, never have. You call some of them -without
even knowing them - "not so smart"

Tom De Moor

In article <[email protected]. com>,
[email protected] says...
>
> > http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_m...details/060627
> > _busmurder/index.shtml
>
> This doesn't involve a bus driver, but a bus passenger. he was not
> Jewish, but Belgian. There were no racial slurs before, during or after
> the incident. If was a fight between an older guy that wanted some
> young guys to be quite. The old guy died of a heart attack. Nothing
> indicates that there were any racial motives involved.
>
>
>
APPLAUSE!

Thank you for proving beyond doubt that stupidity doesn't kill instantely.

And if it did, it wouldn't be stupidity, just the heart stopping for ever.

Tell me, Mr, if "the old guy died of a heart attack", why are TWO of the SIX
agressors still in the closed facility (Youth Jail) of Everberg after 4 months?


Tom De Moor

Tom De Moor schreef:

> In article <[email protected] .com>,
> [email protected] says...
> >
> > The only estimation I saw is that 5% of Jewish in Antwerp vote for
> > Vlaams belang (2005 data, this represents around 1.000 Jews). They are
> > far from massively voting for VB. For reference the number of Antwerp
> > citizens that voted for VB is over 30%.
>
> Untill now the voting prefence of Antwerp Jews is not known and I doubt a lot
> if Jews are willing to let it known.

I got the figure of FDW's website.

> However: the funds donated to political parties -when this was autorised- are
> known and the Jewish community gave a lot to the VB.
>
> >
> > The fact that some immigrants in Belgium (or elsewhere) are not always
> > fitting in and adapting, or that they are over-represented in crime
> > statistics does not make VB's programme, their links to hate groups and
> > their historic links to East-fronters right.
> >
> First of all is WOII some 65 years ago and secondly the links of parties like
> SPa (the Socialist Party) with totalitairan regimes (North-Korea, Cuba, etc)
> are a lot tighter and more recent than any VB-link.

Probably, but anti-VB does not equal pro-sp.a.

> Furthermore -please know your history- the East-Fronters were heavily recruted
> through the Catholic Church in order to fight communism. Even after the WOII
> (when Belgium knew its first and only Communist ministers) these were pictured
> as being of Devil's descent.

I know my history, but it is not really relevant here. I'm not
criticising the East-Fronters, or claiming they were all fascists. But
a modern day party should try to stay away from them and the regime
they are undinyably connected to.

>
> > The only good thing VB does is give an indication of the problems that
> > are experienced by the population and that were, before the success of
> > VB, not recognised and addressed by the other parties. Just like the
> > Green party they should never be more then an opposition party, which
> > is, up to now, all they have ever been.
> >
>
> If in a country where a party reprensenting 30% of its voting population is
> needed to give an indication, than that means a lot as to its structures and as
> to those in power.

I agree; that doesn't speak well about the other politicians, but I do
not need to defend them, or sp.a.

> > Everybody votes for the party he/she wants to, and I don't have a real
> > issue with VB as a part of democracy, they are entitled to their
> > opinion and they do bring forward actual problems that live with a
> > considerable part of the population. But if I were a Jewish person I'd
> > steer away from them as far as I could. Which seems, apart from those
> > 5% apparently not so smart ones, to be the case. A party like VB will
> > always need an enemy.
>
> You analyse the position of the (Antwerp) Jews out of your perspectif but you
> do not know either their situation nor their problems. Almost certain is that
> you have never even spoken to an Antwerp Jew, a Jew in Israel or an Israeli;
> yett you take the liberty to advice them on security issues.
>
> Jews are not the most loved people through the ages and they have had more than
> their share in prosecution. They came through on their own, against all odds
> and by making their own decisions. I wouldn't classify somebody I don't know
> but with a proven track record as "not so smart".
>
> Just to mention one: Jewish schools *in Belgium* have armed police-officers
> standing on duty. These guards are paid for by the Jewish community. They are
> not there to protect the children from the intentions of VB.
>
> Furthermore it is pretty clear that you picture the VB as the outcast, the
> stupid ones, the crooked ones. Remind you that since the past elections (2
> weeks ago!) a few politicians are now jailed and that none of them is VB. Do
> you really want the list -again- of all those mainstream politicians, trialed
> and convicted, for fraud, theft etc? As to the capabilities of those not
> convicted: see the actual state of affairs.
>
> Or should we take into account the real security situation -in Antwerp,
> Brussels or Paris- which is constantly overruled by a state which political
> caste has but the ambition to stay in power and which has clearly no clue as
> how to respond to attacks on its own civilians?
>
> We are in a system where the civilian may not protect himself, the State will
> do that. Jews do not believe that, never have. You call some of them -without
> even knowing them - "not so smart"
>
> Tom De Moor

The fact that there are problems is not something I deny. I'm saying
that the VB is one of the worst solutions to the problems.

There are sufficient links and quotes of Jewish in Antwerp stating that
they are not trusting VB at all. Do you have some where they publicly
state they do?

Dimitri

"theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:

> Fight your wars with your Muslim ennemies at Israel's borders, will
> you.

LOL. If you think that the struggle against Islamofascism only concerns
Jews, you're dumber than I thought. It's just a matter of time before a
Jihadi blows himself up in the Brussels subway or in a tram in Antwerpen.
As Brussels has the HQ of the EU and NATO, it's a primary target for
terrorists.

> Yes, voting vor VB is a good idea because it scares your own people?
> Sure.

If as a result some of them pack their stuff and move to Israel even
reluctantly, then it is OK to me.

> You're still coming short on one name. I gave three of Jewish
> politicians that have operated in Antwerp and on a national level. You
> gave me nothing.

Of course I can't give you none. VB is essentially a Flemish nationalist
party. You can't expect Jews to belong to it. Likewise, you can't expect
Flemings to belong to the Likud.

> Quote: "Wearing Orthodox black suits and Homburg hats, the men were
> carrying palm fronds in honor of the feast of Sukkot, celebrated this
> weekend. That festival meant it was forbidden for Jews to cast their
> votes, Jeremy Sulzbacher said, unless they had organized a proxy vote.
> "Vlaams Belang doesn't convince Jewish people," he said. "Once they've
> finished with the Muslims and the North Africans, who will they start
> on next? They'll start on us, the Jews."

I'd love to see some figures to confirm or deny that based on facts, not
sheer speculation.

> Then you don't walk around in Antwerp often.

I go everyday to work there. I haven't seen any skinhead, but that does
not mean they don't exist. However, unlike in East Germany, they are not a
primary security concern.

> This doesn't involve a bus driver, but a bus passenger. he was not
> Jewish, but Belgian. There were no racial slurs before, during or
> after the incident. If was a fight between an older guy that wanted
> some young guys to be quite. The old guy died of a heart attack.
> Nothing indicates that there were any racial motives involved.

My point is that Jewish/Belgian people are nearly always the victims of
these Arab youths. I doubt the incident would have ended up with a murder
should the kids have been Belgian or Jewish. Now, I don't know if law and
order means something for you, but I guess it certainly does for many hard-
working citizens worried about the lawlessness and insecurity in their own
cities.

>> No. I am not aware of that, "off" course. Sounds like the usual
>> anti-VB
>> scaremongering.
>
> Actually it is written down in their programme. Look on their site,
> and look it up.

.. DEMOCRATIE

Het Vlaams Belang kiest uitdrukkelijk voor de democratie als politiek
model. Het volk beslist. Dat is meteen de kern van het Vlaams-
Belangstandpunt terzake.

Nevertheless, I don't have a crystal ball, and I don't know what the VB
would do should they got into power. Meanwhile, I will give them the
benefit of the doubt, in particular after seeing how the "democratic"
parties that don't solve the problems of the citizens attack them.

> You are the first Jewish that I heard declaring that what happened
> during WW2 is a "secondary issue".

For me, in 2006, certainly it is. Listen, there's some people in Israel
that, even to date, boycott Germany and don't buy anything German. However,
the bulk of the Israeli population moved on a long time ago, and even
Sharon got a new BMW when he was PM.

If a Jew does not vote for the VB because of the Flemish SS or whatever, I
can understand that. However, some other might think that the only way to
stop the Muslim invasion is voting for the VB.

> We are overrun by Jews as well I
> guess.

Jews don't pose a threat to the Flemish way of life. They don't plant
bombs. They don't blow buses up. They don't mug old people. They respect
the law. They don't get into trouble.

However, I don't want to sound opinionated or self-righteous. Are there
bad apples in the Jewish community? Certainly, yes. But they are the
exception, not the norm.

>You might very well be the second largest religious minority
> group in Antwerp. You're probably next on their list as well.

I don't remember any open hostility from the VB against the Jews during
the last years.



BOLUDOVSKY