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12 oktober 2006, 13:45 | #1 |
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Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Gidon Van Emden, THE JERUSALEM POST Oct. 12, 2006 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- The results are in. The extreme right Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest or VB) did not capture Antwerp's city hall. Meanwhile, the center-right Flemish Liberals and Democrats of Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt lost throughout the country, while the Socialist Party in Wallonia hung on, contrary to many predictions. But is the outcome really a victory for the democratic parties, as those who consistently block the VB out of coalitions are called? Or was it a Pyrrhic victory, as VB leader Filip Dewinter said on Sunday evening as the results became clear? A look at Antwerp, Belgium's second city with the country's largest Orthodox community, shows that there are no easy answers, especially for the Jewish community. With the notable exception of Claude Marinower, the openly Jewish council member who regularly decries the situation, the mainstream parties, including the current coalition of socialists, liberals and Greens, have done too little to combat the anti-Semitism and racism that are still found here. Campaigning for a "Livable Antwerp," the VB seems like an alternative. Using an excellent communications strategy, the party stands for a Flanders that is closed to immigrants, creating a better atmosphere for everyone. Moreover, playing into people's fears, the party is openly anti-Muslim. Dewinter, in a now-famous interview last year with the New York Jewish Week, claimed the VB espoused Islamophobia. In fact, the party's predecessor, Vlaams Blok (Flemish Bloc), was banned in 2004 for incitement to hate and discrimination. Meanwhile and surprisingly, Dewinter has done a fabulous job of looking respectable to the Jews, taking consistently pro-Israel stances and creating good contacts with certain rabbis in the community. And indeed, looking closely at the results, the elections seem to have been more about marketing than anything else. Dewinter's charm offensive seems to have worked. And others are catching on. In cities such as Ghent and Mechelen, where the VB was the largest party on the city council before the elections but shut out from the coalition, mainstream mayors have campaigned hard to become better known. And in both these cities, they were reelected and the VB did not gain seats. SOCIALIST MAYOR Patrick Janssens of Antwerp, where Dewinter hoped to become mayor by gaining an absolute majority, increased his party by 10 council seats, flying past the VB, which was the largest party before the elections. Though the VB didn't lose any seats - the 10 gained came from the liberals and Greens, Janssens's coalition partners - neither did they win. Janssens's background is in marketing. He came to the mayoralty from the advertising world. Upon election, his pledge was to communicate better and to connect better to "de Antwerpenaars" - the citizens of his city. This he has done. And his efforts are bearing fruit. Using American-style techniques, he kept people up-to-date on what is happening in the city. He organized regular cultural events to indemnify citizens for the seemingly constant construction and related disruptions. In a country where voting is mandatory, he ran on a personal campaign for mayor. And he got reelected on it, too. Has he, however, solved the problems of the Jewish community? Not really, according to the Forum of Jewish Organizations, a Jewish umbrella group based in Antwerp. The Jewish community still witnesses anti-Semitism and choosing whom to vote for was not easy at all, according to Nadine Iarchy, a board member of the forum: "The democratic parties have done little to combat anti-Semitism, while the Vlaams Belang actively reaches out and presents itself as an alternative." Only last week, students from a local yeshiva were attacked again. This was the fourth attack on students of this institution alone. Last May, Antwerp witnessed the murder of a woman from Mali by a skinhead. The baby in her care also died in the attack. Anti-Semitic graffiti are seen regularly. Racist violence has not been curbed by the current coalition, there is too little attention to the combating racism and anti-Semitism in the Flemish educational system, and the Jewish community feels unsafe. To add insult to injury, the voting took place on Sunday, the second day of Succot, and there was no other option for observant Jews than to give a proxy form to trusted non-Jews. The only party that systematically went around collecting those forms was the VB. Now, the forum's secretary-general, Diane Keyser, says that it is unclear what will happen next, and how a new coalition might impact the situation of the Jewish community. What is clear, however, is that the Jewish community trusts the complacent "democratic parties" no more than the Vlaams Belang. Obliged by law to vote, forced to choose between two evils, we feel ourselves stuck between a rock and a hard place. The writer is the policy officer at CEJI - A Jewish Contribution to an Inclusive Europe. -- |
13 oktober 2006, 16:45 | #2 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
Hello Sir,
I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his pro-nazi preferrences. The fact that the Jewish press naively listens to Dewinter's statements is pathetic. Even if the traditional parties seem to be unable to find a solution to the current society problems, looking towards the Blok is stupid. If you do expect that Extremists parties will favor your community after they are elected, "vous vous foutez le doigt dans l'oeil" Je suis d'accord que la communauté juive ne se sente pas �* l'aise mais elle n'a pas le monopole du malaise... La nounou malienne assassinée en mai l'était par un sympathisant du Blok apparemment. Alors si on tolère que le Blok prenne le pouvoir pour assurer tranquilité aux Juifs au détriment des immigrés dans leur ensemble, c'est moi qui suis mal �* l'aise. La tranquilité est un droit dont tout le monde doit bénéficier. Cordialement, BOLUDOVSKY wrote: > Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
13 oktober 2006, 18:05 | #3 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
Pan gerwazy schreef: > not) propaganda since July 1950. Only a limited number of his thousands July 2005, of course. Slip off the console. Hm - my sister was born that year. |
13 oktober 2006, 18:05 | #4 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
marioleoz schreef: > Hello Sir, > > I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams > Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist > roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his pro-nazi > preferrences. > > The fact that the Jewish press naively listens to Dewinter's statements > is pathetic. > > Even if the traditional parties seem to be unable to find a solution to > the current society problems, looking towards the Blok is stupid. If > you do expect that Extremists parties will favor your community after > they are elected, "vous vous foutez le doigt dans l'oeil" > > Je suis d'accord que la communauté juive ne se sente pas �* l'aise > mais elle n'a pas le monopole du malaise... La nounou malienne > assassinée en mai l'était par un sympathisant du Blok apparemment. > Alors si on tolère que le Blok prenne le pouvoir pour assurer > tranquilité aux Juifs au détriment des immigrés dans leur ensemble, > c'est moi qui suis mal �* l'aise. La tranquilité est un droit dont > tout le monde doit bénéficier. > > Cordialement, > > No use. The guy pretends to be studying for his MBA in Brussels. He has spammed Spanish and Argentine news groups with nazi Jewish (I kid you not) propaganda since July 1950. Only a limited number of his thousands of messages was not a copy of some newspaper article. As for his original posts, I wonder if he knows that under Belgian law he could be sued for claiming Bill Clinton was a pedophile. So, in short, "DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS". -- Greetings from Ghent, the most beautiful place in Belgium |
16 oktober 2006, 09:25 | #5 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
"marioleoz" <[email protected]> dixit:
> Hello Sir, > > I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams > Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist > roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his > pro-nazi preferrences. Better VB than sharia. BOLUDOVSKY -- |
16 oktober 2006, 10:15 | #6 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
BOLUDOVSKY schreef: > "marioleoz" <[email protected]> dixit: > > > Hello Sir, > > > > I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams > > Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist > > roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his > > pro-nazi preferrences. > > Better VB than sharia. > > BOLUDOVSKY Don't live in the naive belief that, after VB has "solved" problems with the muslim community, they won't be looking for another minority which could be the "common enemy" they need for their fear tactics. Jewish representatives in Antwerp have been *very* careful to keep the necessary distance between themselves and Vlaams Belang. Especially since Vlaams Belang feels to put any kind of reasonable distance between themselves and violent neo-nazi organisations such as Blood & Honour. I'm sure most Jewish living in Antwerp are more then just a bit concerned about VB's recent successes (although it looks like it has slowed down). Your logic would be a lot more acceptable if you could point out one Jewish person on the election lists of Vlaams Belang. Other parties (socialist, liberal, ...) have Jewish on them. Just in Antwerp I can name, out of the top of my head, Marinower from VLD (liberal party) and Erdman from Sp.a (socialist party). Now you give me one Jewish man or woman on the list of Vlaams belang. Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government. A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams Belang? Dimitri |
16 oktober 2006, 10:15 | #7 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
marioleoz schreef: > Hello Sir, > > I am afraid you and The J. Post have little knowledge of the Vlaams > Blok history and background. The Blok has clear and overt fascist > roots.Karel Dillen, founder of the Party, has never hidden his pro-nazi > preferrences. > > The fact that the Jewish press naively listens to Dewinter's statements > is pathetic. > > Even if the traditional parties seem to be unable to find a solution to > the current society problems, looking towards the Blok is stupid. If > you do expect that Extremists parties will favor your community after > they are elected, "vous vous foutez le doigt dans l'oeil" > > Je suis d'accord que la communauté juive ne se sente pas �* l'aise > mais elle n'a pas le monopole du malaise... La nounou malienne > assassinée en mai l'était par un sympathisant du Blok apparemment. > Alors si on tolère que le Blok prenne le pouvoir pour assurer > tranquilité aux Juifs au détriment des immigrés dans leur ensemble, > c'est moi qui suis mal �* l'aise. La tranquilité est un droit dont > tout le monde doit bénéficier. > > Cordialement, > > > BOLUDOVSKY wrote: > > Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is true, but not in the case of Vlaams Belang and the Jewish. |
16 oktober 2006, 12:15 | #8 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
"theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:
> Don't live in the naive belief that, after VB has "solved" problems > with the muslim community, they won't be looking for another minority > which could be the "common enemy" they need for their fear tactics. I am not sure what the VB will do once he "solves" the Muslim "problem". Will they turn on the Jews? I don't think they'll be so foolish. First of all, Jews in Anterwp don't pose any problem, and most Flemish recognize that. Do you think the average Antwerper is scared when he crosses a Haredi man in the street? And when he crosses an inmigrant (Arab) youth? > Your logic would be a lot more acceptable if you could point out one > Jewish person on the election lists of Vlaams Belang. Other parties > (socialist, liberal, ...) have Jewish on them. Just in Antwerp I can > name, out of the top of my head, Marinower from VLD (liberal party) and > Erdman from Sp.a (socialist party). > Now you give me one Jewish man or woman on the list of Vlaams belang. I don't think ethnic vote has any appeal for Jews. Most of the Jews of Antwerp are Haredim (ultra-orthodox). They live in their own world. > Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community > trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that > together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government. When you are called "dirty Jew" by Muslims in the supermarket, when you have to avoid some neighbourhoods in your own city, when due to the Islamization of Belgian society your future looks very bleak, VB turns out to be the least of your worries. > A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese > woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a > Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams > Belang? Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish yeshiva student was stabbed to death? Better VB than sharia. Better VB than crooks. BOLUDOVSKY -- |
16 oktober 2006, 12:25 | #9 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
BOLUDOVSKY schreef: > "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit: > > A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese > > woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a > > Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams > > Belang? > > Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death > by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish > yeshiva student was stabbed to death? > > Better VB than sharia. > > Better VB than crooks. > > BOLUDOVSKY Gekke Khan goes international! En daarnet heeft hij in een Spaanse nieuwsgroep gepost dat het nog niet zeker is dat de Baskische ETA niets te maken heeft met de aanslag in Madrid!!! Dat zal hem zeker erg populair maken bij het VB in Antwerpen. -- "And I still see their faces ..." http://www.shalom.org.pl/eng/index.htm |
16 oktober 2006, 13:35 | #10 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says... > > > Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community > > trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that > > together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government. > > When you are called "dirty Jew" by Muslims in the supermarket, when you > have to avoid some neighbourhoods in your own city, when due to the > Islamization of Belgian society your future looks very bleak, VB turns out > to be the least of your worries. > Not correct: then VB turns out your only friend because all others look the other way, deny that something went wrong, even claim that you are the cause. "Friend" of the Jewish community is a titel worth real money: Antwerp Jews are among the sponsors of the VB, even now when gifts are not deductable any more. If a Jew gives you money, there is trust and a reason. All the hatred is linked to VB, but the few Jews so badly beaten up in Antwerp that it coudn't stay out of the papers, were the victims of Muslims. Jewish holocaust momuments in Antwerp and Brussels were vandalised by Muslims "youth". As a Belgian -even an uniformed policeman- it is better to stay out of certain areas of Antwerp / Brussels after dark, as a recognisable Jew going there equals a death certificate. I am not a Jew and I don't favour nor discriminate them. Some of my clients are Jews. I can state from owm experience that I still have to live the day where a member of the VB spit me in the face, I had that allready with a Morrocan. I still have to live the day that a VB-voter drives his car into mine and hasn't drivers licence nor insurance, I had that on 3 occasions with Arabs. Finally I have never been attacked of been victim of robbery by people linked to VB whereas North-Africans saw me as a easy target some 10 times. > > A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese > > woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a > > Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams > > Belang? > > Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death > by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish > yeshiva student was stabbed to death? > > Better VB than sharia. Better still: apply Sharia on those who claim it to be their heritage, their present and their future. If they don't like it here, that they bugger off: even in their former home-countries there are masses who are certain that coming to the West is winning the lottery big time. When are we going to see parties like SPa, CD&V and VLD going to Marokko and saying there loud and clear that Maroccans who will not integrate in Western society should stay where they are and develop their own country? I was in London yesterday: if you want a working society with all races mingeling, there it is. And yett also there you have the veiled people, chador, burka and worse; dividing everybody, imposing their own manners. I was handsearched before boarding a plane, putting my shoes on a tray so that they could be scanned. I accept it without comment. A black clothed bitch with only the eyes uncovered screams the whole terminal together and causes a delay because she doesn't allow the security procedures to be executed. Oh yes: I am not the most tolerate one, I definitely hate people making problems. For my part this "madame" should be escorted away and given a swift kick aimed at the lower back region on the way out. Tom De Moor |
16 oktober 2006, 14:55 | #11 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
BOLUDOVSKY schreef: > "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit: > > > Don't live in the naive belief that, after VB has "solved" problems > > with the muslim community, they won't be looking for another minority > > which could be the "common enemy" they need for their fear tactics. > > I am not sure what the VB will do once he "solves" the Muslim "problem". > Will they turn on the Jews? I don't think they'll be so foolish. > > First of all, Jews in Anterwp don't pose any problem, and most Flemish > recognize that. Do you think the average Antwerper is scared when he > crosses a Haredi man in the street? And when he crosses an inmigrant (Arab) > youth? Do you think German's in '32 were scared of Jewish robbing their purses and stealing their cars? Probably not. Once Jewish are the only minority left in Antwerp there will *alwys* be people that will, for their own interests, make the Jewish look bad. > > Your logic would be a lot more acceptable if you could point out one > > Jewish person on the election lists of Vlaams Belang. Other parties > > (socialist, liberal, ...) have Jewish on them. Just in Antwerp I can > > name, out of the top of my head, Marinower from VLD (liberal party) and > > Erdman from Sp.a (socialist party). > > Now you give me one Jewish man or woman on the list of Vlaams belang. > > I don't think ethnic vote has any appeal for Jews. Most of the Jews of > Antwerp are Haredim (ultra-orthodox). They live in their own world. There are clearly Jewish that do "not live in their own world" and that are interested in politics in Belgium. None of them are on the list of VB's though. At the same time guys like Erdman and Gol were actually the presidents of their respecitve political parties (sp.a and MR). They were more then just a little involved in Belgian politics. Yet you fail to give me even one name, one measly name, of a Jewish person on the list of Vlaams Belang. Not one, in the whole of Belgium. Jewish people in Belgium seem to be a *lot* more knowledgable on Vlaams Belang then you are. > > Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community > > trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that > > together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government. > > When you are called "dirty Jew" by Muslims in the supermarket, when you > have to avoid some neighbourhoods in your own city, when due to the > Islamization of Belgian society your future looks very bleak, VB turns out > to be the least of your worries. Actually most anti-Jewish violence that makes the newspapers are attacks by Belgian neo-nazis, not attacks from Muslims. But, don't believe me, read some independent source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3586543.stm Quote: "The study singles out Belgium, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Britain, where it says the rise in anti-Semitism has been of particular concern. Other countries, including Ireland and Portugal, showed little sign of any rise in attacks, the report says. It identifies "young, disaffected white Europeans" as the key culprits followed by North African or Asian Muslims." Most dangerous incidents do not involve Arabs, but skinheads. > > A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese > > woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a > > Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams > > Belang? > > Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death > by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish > yeshiva student was stabbed to death? Please tell me about this "murdered bus driver incident". I'd like to know more of it. Give us some links. With regard to the "Yeshiva" incident: the latest case in which a Jewish person was attacked (not killed) by an Arab in Antwerp was in 2004? In a city with a high concentration of Jewish and Arabs that doesn't really sound like these attacks are the order of the day. Especially since the Yeshiva college is right next to an area where the population consists of +/-90% Arabs. But, at least you are aware that the adverb "democratic" is one of the main differences between VB and other parties. You are aware, off course, that VB believes that Flanders (as they do not recognise Belgium, being separatists and all) should be ruled by the "natural elite", and not by people elected by the population. > Better VB than sharia. > > Better VB than crooks. For me, being white and from Christian descent, you're probably right on both accounts. For you, or other Jewish, I doubt that this would be the case, especially on longer term. Do you really want a local government filled with people that have ties to violent extreme right organisations and of which a lot still have ties to the Nazi's and East-fronters that fought for Hitler at the Russian front? You probably do, you didn't really convince me of being highly intelligent. Luckily for you the Jewish community in Antwerp (and the rest of Belgium) is quite a bit smarter and realistic. Dimitri |
16 oktober 2006, 14:55 | #12 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
"theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected] oups.com... > > BOLUDOVSKY schreef: > >> "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit: >> >> > Don't live in the naive belief that, after VB has "solved" problems >> > with the muslim community, they won't be looking for another minority >> > which could be the "common enemy" they need for their fear tactics. >> >> I am not sure what the VB will do once he "solves" the Muslim "problem". >> Will they turn on the Jews? I don't think they'll be so foolish. >> >> First of all, Jews in Anterwp don't pose any problem, and most Flemish >> recognize that. Do you think the average Antwerper is scared when he >> crosses a Haredi man in the street? And when he crosses an inmigrant >> (Arab) >> youth? > > Do you think German's in '32 were scared of Jewish robbing their purses > and stealing their cars? Probably not. They were worried about them destroying the country financially. > > Once Jewish are the only minority left in Antwerp there will *alwys* be > people that will, for their own interests, make the Jewish look bad. They don't need any help. It's a genetic thing with them. |
16 oktober 2006, 15:05 | #13 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
In article <[email protected]>,
Benjie <benjie@y'allknowbynow.com.> wrote: (drivel snipped) Stop ranting, doper. "my younger Brother got me absolutely stoned on magic mushrooms. I spent three days sitting in the corner of the tent waiting to come down." -- the neo-Nazi "Ben Cramer" reflects on his usage of hallucinatory drugs. Source: Message-ID: <1125123267.5e5d281ad88798917af26011bcb01dc0@teran ews> RJ. |
16 oktober 2006, 15:35 | #14 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
"theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:
> Do you think German's in '32 were scared of Jewish robbing their > purses and stealing their cars? Probably not. So what? The nazis didn't disappoint anyone. They carried out the program laid out by Hitler in "Mein Kampf". OTOH, Nazi propaganda usually portrayed Jews either as wealthy capitalists exploiting Germans or vulgar criminals. > Once Jewish are the only minority left in Antwerp there will *alwys* > be people that will, for their own interests, make the Jewish look > bad. OK. Then it will be time to move to Israel. As a Zionist, voting VB works both ways: 1. it sends a clear signal to our Muslim enemies: get the hell outta here 2. it scares the shit out of the Jewish lefties who, otherwise, wouldn't have envisaged moving to Israel > Yet you fail to give me even one name, one measly name, of a Jewish > person on the list of Vlaams Belang. Not one, in the whole of Belgium. So what? If VB works in the Jewish interest, Jews will vote for it. I am curious to know the last election results in downtown Antwerp. > Most dangerous incidents do not involve Arabs, but skinheads. I haven't seen a skinhead in Antwerp for years. > Please tell me about this "murdered bus driver incident". I'd like to > know more of it. Give us some links. http://www.hln.be/hlns/cache/det/art_225589.html http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_m...details/060627 _busmurder/index.shtml > > With regard to the "Yeshiva" incident: the latest case in which a > Jewish person was attacked (not killed) by an Arab in Antwerp was in > 2004? No. He was killed. Two years ago. Murder of British Jew heightens racial tensions in Belgium Independent, The (London), Nov 19, 2004 by Stephen Castle in Antwerp A BRITISH orthodox Jew and aide to a local rabbi was shot dead in Antwerp yesterday, heightening racial tensions in Belgium's second city after recent turbulence in neighbouring Netherlands. > But, at least you are aware that the adverb "democratic" is one of the > main differences between VB and other parties. You are aware, off > course, that VB believes that Flanders (as they do not recognise > Belgium, being separatists and all) should be ruled by the "natural > elite", and not by people elected by the population. No. I am not aware of that, "off" course. Sounds like the usual anti-VB scaremongering. > Do you really want a local government filled with people that have > ties to violent extreme right organisations and of which a lot still > have ties to the Nazi's and East-fronters that fought for Hitler at > the Russian front? When your way of life is in danger and you feel threatened, what happened 60 years ago becomes a secondary issue. We are in 2006. Belgium and the whole of Europe is being invaded by Arab/Muslims. Only a few are reacting, VB among them. As long as I stay in Belgium, they have my vote. BOLUDOVSKY -- |
16 oktober 2006, 15:35 | #15 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
Tom De Moor schreef: > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] > says... > > > > > Just one. Else we'll have to conclude that the Antwerp Jewish community > > > trusts VB less then otehr parties, even those like VLD and SP.a that > > > together form Belgium's so-called "anti-zionist" government. > > > > When you are called "dirty Jew" by Muslims in the supermarket, when you > > have to avoid some neighbourhoods in your own city, when due to the > > Islamization of Belgian society your future looks very bleak, VB turns out > > to be the least of your worries. > > > > Not correct: then VB turns out your only friend because all others look the > other way, deny that something went wrong, even claim that you are the cause. > > "Friend" of the Jewish community is a titel worth real money: Antwerp Jews are > among the sponsors of the VB, even now when gifts are not deductable any more. > If a Jew gives you money, there is trust and a reason. > > All the hatred is linked to VB, but the few Jews so badly beaten up in Antwerp > that it coudn't stay out of the papers, were the victims of Muslims. Jewish > holocaust momuments in Antwerp and Brussels were vandalised by Muslims "youth". > > As a Belgian -even an uniformed policeman- it is better to stay out of certain > areas of Antwerp / Brussels after dark, as a recognisable Jew going there > equals a death certificate. > > I am not a Jew and I don't favour nor discriminate them. Some of my clients are > Jews. > > I can state from owm experience that I still have to live the day where a > member of the VB spit me in the face, I had that allready with a Morrocan. I > still have to live the day that a VB-voter drives his car into mine and hasn't > drivers licence nor insurance, I had that on 3 occasions with Arabs. > > Finally I have never been attacked of been victim of robbery by people linked > to VB whereas North-Africans saw me as a easy target some 10 times. > > > > > > A"Silent March" that was held in Antwerp in Memory of the Malinese > > > woman and Belgian child that were killed by a neo-nazi. There was a > > > Jewish representation present on that march. Where-o-where was Vlaams > > > Belang? > > > > Where were the "democratic" parties when a bus driver was beaten to death > > by a "troubled" youth? Where were the "democratic" parties when a Jewish > > yeshiva student was stabbed to death? > > > > Better VB than sharia. > > Better still: apply Sharia on those who claim it to be their heritage, their > present and their future. If they don't like it here, that they bugger off: > even in their former home-countries there are masses who are certain that > coming to the West is winning the lottery big time. > > When are we going to see parties like SPa, CD&V and VLD going to Marokko and > saying there loud and clear that Maroccans who will not integrate in Western > society should stay where they are and develop their own country? > > I was in London yesterday: if you want a working society with all races > mingeling, there it is. And yett also there you have the veiled people, chador, > burka and worse; dividing everybody, imposing their own manners. > > I was handsearched before boarding a plane, putting my shoes on a tray so that > they could be scanned. I accept it without comment. A black clothed bitch with > only the eyes uncovered screams the whole terminal together and causes a delay > because she doesn't allow the security procedures to be executed. > > Oh yes: I am not the most tolerate one, I definitely hate people making > problems. For my part this "madame" should be escorted away and given a swift > kick aimed at the lower back region on the way out. > > Tom De Moor The only estimation I saw is that 5% of Jewish in Antwerp vote for Vlaams belang (2005 data, this represents around 1.000 Jews). They are far from massively voting for VB. For reference the number of Antwerp citizens that voted for VB is over 30%. The fact that some immigrants in Belgium (or elsewhere) are not always fitting in and adapting, or that they are over-represented in crime statistics does not make VB's programme, their links to hate groups and their historic links to East-fronters right. The only good thing VB does is give an indication of the problems that are experienced by the population and that were, before the success of VB, not recognised and addressed by the other parties. Just like the Green party they should never be more then an opposition party, which is, up to now, all they have ever been. Everybody votes for the party he/she wants to, and I don't have a real issue with VB as a part of democracy, they are entitled to their opinion and they do bring forward actual problems that live with a considerable part of the population. But if I were a Jewish person I'd steer away from them as far as I could. Which seems, apart from those 5% apparently not so smart ones, to be the case. A party like VB will always need an enemy. Dimitri |
16 oktober 2006, 15:55 | #16 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
BOLUDOVSKY schreef: > "theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit: > > > Do you think German's in '32 were scared of Jewish robbing their > > purses and stealing their cars? Probably not. > > So what? The nazis didn't disappoint anyone. They carried out the > program laid out by Hitler in "Mein Kampf". > > OTOH, Nazi propaganda usually portrayed Jews either as wealthy > capitalists exploiting Germans or vulgar criminals. > > > Once Jewish are the only minority left in Antwerp there will *alwys* > > be people that will, for their own interests, make the Jewish look > > bad. > > OK. Then it will be time to move to Israel. As a Zionist, voting VB > works both ways: > > 1. it sends a clear signal to our Muslim enemies: get the hell outta here Fight your wars with your Muslim ennemies at Israel's borders, will you. > 2. it scares the shit out of the Jewish lefties who, otherwise, wouldn't > have envisaged moving to Israel Yes, voting vor VB is a good idea because it scares your own people? Sure. > > Yet you fail to give me even one name, one measly name, of a Jewish > > person on the list of Vlaams Belang. Not one, in the whole of Belgium. > > So what? If VB works in the Jewish interest, Jews will vote for it. I am > curious to know the last election results in downtown Antwerp. You're still coming short on one name. I gave three of Jewish politicians that have operated in Antwerp and on a national level. You gave me nothing. If you lived in Antwerp you'd know. In any case, in this articla from before the elections, the Jewish community didn't seem like they were planning to vote for VB. http://www.nysun.com/article/41178 Quote: "Wearing Orthodox black suits and Homburg hats, the men were carrying palm fronds in honor of the feast of Sukkot, celebrated this weekend. That festival meant it was forbidden for Jews to cast their votes, Jeremy Sulzbacher said, unless they had organized a proxy vote. "Vlaams Belang doesn't convince Jewish people," he said. "Once they've finished with the Muslims and the North Africans, who will they start on next? They'll start on us, the Jews." > > Most dangerous incidents do not involve Arabs, but skinheads. > > I haven't seen a skinhead in Antwerp for years. Then you don't walk around in Antwerp often. > > Please tell me about this "murdered bus driver incident". I'd like to > > know more of it. Give us some links. > > http://www.hln.be/hlns/cache/det/art_225589.html > > http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_m...details/060627 > _busmurder/index.shtml This doesn't involve a bus driver, but a bus passenger. he was not Jewish, but Belgian. There were no racial slurs before, during or after the incident. If was a fight between an older guy that wanted some young guys to be quite. The old guy died of a heart attack. Nothing indicates that there were any racial motives involved. > > > > With regard to the "Yeshiva" incident: the latest case in which a > > Jewish person was attacked (not killed) by an Arab in Antwerp was in > > 2004? > > No. He was killed. Two years ago. > > Murder of British Jew heightens racial tensions in Belgium > Independent, The (London), Nov 19, 2004 by Stephen Castle in Antwerp > > A BRITISH orthodox Jew and aide to a local rabbi was shot dead in Antwerp > yesterday, heightening racial tensions in Belgium's second city after > recent turbulence in neighbouring Netherlands. > > > But, at least you are aware that the adverb "democratic" is one of the > > main differences between VB and other parties. You are aware, off > > course, that VB believes that Flanders (as they do not recognise > > Belgium, being separatists and all) should be ruled by the "natural > > elite", and not by people elected by the population. > > No. I am not aware of that, "off" course. Sounds like the usual anti-VB > scaremongering. Actually it is written down in their programme. Look on their site, and look it up. > > Do you really want a local government filled with people that have > > ties to violent extreme right organisations and of which a lot still > > have ties to the Nazi's and East-fronters that fought for Hitler at > > the Russian front? > > When your way of life is in danger and you feel threatened, what > happened 60 years ago becomes a secondary issue. We are in 2006. Belgium > and the whole of Europe is being invaded by Arab/Muslims. Only a few are > reacting, VB among them. As long as I stay in Belgium, they have my vote. You are the first Jewish that I heard declaring that what happened during WW2 is a "secondary issue". And the percentage of Arabs in Antwerp (around 6,5%) is not that much higher then the number of Jewish in Antwerp (around 4,5%). We are overrun by Jews as well I guess. You might very well be the second largest religious minority group in Antwerp. You're probably next on their list as well. You are among the 5% of Jewish that vote for VB, I expected that. 95% of your family and friends are smarter then you. Dimitri |
16 oktober 2006, 17:15 | #17 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
In article <[email protected] .com>,
[email protected] says... > > The only estimation I saw is that 5% of Jewish in Antwerp vote for > Vlaams belang (2005 data, this represents around 1.000 Jews). They are > far from massively voting for VB. For reference the number of Antwerp > citizens that voted for VB is over 30%. Untill now the voting prefence of Antwerp Jews is not known and I doubt a lot if Jews are willing to let it known. However: the funds donated to political parties -when this was autorised- are known and the Jewish community gave a lot to the VB. > > The fact that some immigrants in Belgium (or elsewhere) are not always > fitting in and adapting, or that they are over-represented in crime > statistics does not make VB's programme, their links to hate groups and > their historic links to East-fronters right. > First of all is WOII some 65 years ago and secondly the links of parties like SPa (the Socialist Party) with totalitairan regimes (North-Korea, Cuba, etc) are a lot tighter and more recent than any VB-link. Furthermore -please know your history- the East-Fronters were heavily recruted through the Catholic Church in order to fight communism. Even after the WOII (when Belgium knew its first and only Communist ministers) these were pictured as being of Devil's descent. > The only good thing VB does is give an indication of the problems that > are experienced by the population and that were, before the success of > VB, not recognised and addressed by the other parties. Just like the > Green party they should never be more then an opposition party, which > is, up to now, all they have ever been. > If in a country where a party reprensenting 30% of its voting population is needed to give an indication, than that means a lot as to its structures and as to those in power. > Everybody votes for the party he/she wants to, and I don't have a real > issue with VB as a part of democracy, they are entitled to their > opinion and they do bring forward actual problems that live with a > considerable part of the population. But if I were a Jewish person I'd > steer away from them as far as I could. Which seems, apart from those > 5% apparently not so smart ones, to be the case. A party like VB will > always need an enemy. You analyse the position of the (Antwerp) Jews out of your perspectif but you do not know either their situation nor their problems. Almost certain is that you have never even spoken to an Antwerp Jew, a Jew in Israel or an Israeli; yett you take the liberty to advice them on security issues. Jews are not the most loved people through the ages and they have had more than their share in prosecution. They came through on their own, against all odds and by making their own decisions. I wouldn't classify somebody I don't know but with a proven track record as "not so smart". Just to mention one: Jewish schools *in Belgium* have armed police-officers standing on duty. These guards are paid for by the Jewish community. They are not there to protect the children from the intentions of VB. Furthermore it is pretty clear that you picture the VB as the outcast, the stupid ones, the crooked ones. Remind you that since the past elections (2 weeks ago!) a few politicians are now jailed and that none of them is VB. Do you really want the list -again- of all those mainstream politicians, trialed and convicted, for fraud, theft etc? As to the capabilities of those not convicted: see the actual state of affairs. Or should we take into account the real security situation -in Antwerp, Brussels or Paris- which is constantly overruled by a state which political caste has but the ambition to stay in power and which has clearly no clue as how to respond to attacks on its own civilians? We are in a system where the civilian may not protect himself, the State will do that. Jews do not believe that, never have. You call some of them -without even knowing them - "not so smart" Tom De Moor |
16 oktober 2006, 17:25 | #18 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
In article <[email protected]. com>,
[email protected] says... > > > http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_m...details/060627 > > _busmurder/index.shtml > > This doesn't involve a bus driver, but a bus passenger. he was not > Jewish, but Belgian. There were no racial slurs before, during or after > the incident. If was a fight between an older guy that wanted some > young guys to be quite. The old guy died of a heart attack. Nothing > indicates that there were any racial motives involved. > > > APPLAUSE! Thank you for proving beyond doubt that stupidity doesn't kill instantely. And if it did, it wouldn't be stupidity, just the heart stopping for ever. Tell me, Mr, if "the old guy died of a heart attack", why are TWO of the SIX agressors still in the closed facility (Youth Jail) of Everberg after 4 months? Tom De Moor |
16 oktober 2006, 19:55 | #19 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
Tom De Moor schreef: > In article <[email protected] .com>, > [email protected] says... > > > > The only estimation I saw is that 5% of Jewish in Antwerp vote for > > Vlaams belang (2005 data, this represents around 1.000 Jews). They are > > far from massively voting for VB. For reference the number of Antwerp > > citizens that voted for VB is over 30%. > > Untill now the voting prefence of Antwerp Jews is not known and I doubt a lot > if Jews are willing to let it known. I got the figure of FDW's website. > However: the funds donated to political parties -when this was autorised- are > known and the Jewish community gave a lot to the VB. > > > > > The fact that some immigrants in Belgium (or elsewhere) are not always > > fitting in and adapting, or that they are over-represented in crime > > statistics does not make VB's programme, their links to hate groups and > > their historic links to East-fronters right. > > > First of all is WOII some 65 years ago and secondly the links of parties like > SPa (the Socialist Party) with totalitairan regimes (North-Korea, Cuba, etc) > are a lot tighter and more recent than any VB-link. Probably, but anti-VB does not equal pro-sp.a. > Furthermore -please know your history- the East-Fronters were heavily recruted > through the Catholic Church in order to fight communism. Even after the WOII > (when Belgium knew its first and only Communist ministers) these were pictured > as being of Devil's descent. I know my history, but it is not really relevant here. I'm not criticising the East-Fronters, or claiming they were all fascists. But a modern day party should try to stay away from them and the regime they are undinyably connected to. > > > The only good thing VB does is give an indication of the problems that > > are experienced by the population and that were, before the success of > > VB, not recognised and addressed by the other parties. Just like the > > Green party they should never be more then an opposition party, which > > is, up to now, all they have ever been. > > > > If in a country where a party reprensenting 30% of its voting population is > needed to give an indication, than that means a lot as to its structures and as > to those in power. I agree; that doesn't speak well about the other politicians, but I do not need to defend them, or sp.a. > > Everybody votes for the party he/she wants to, and I don't have a real > > issue with VB as a part of democracy, they are entitled to their > > opinion and they do bring forward actual problems that live with a > > considerable part of the population. But if I were a Jewish person I'd > > steer away from them as far as I could. Which seems, apart from those > > 5% apparently not so smart ones, to be the case. A party like VB will > > always need an enemy. > > You analyse the position of the (Antwerp) Jews out of your perspectif but you > do not know either their situation nor their problems. Almost certain is that > you have never even spoken to an Antwerp Jew, a Jew in Israel or an Israeli; > yett you take the liberty to advice them on security issues. > > Jews are not the most loved people through the ages and they have had more than > their share in prosecution. They came through on their own, against all odds > and by making their own decisions. I wouldn't classify somebody I don't know > but with a proven track record as "not so smart". > > Just to mention one: Jewish schools *in Belgium* have armed police-officers > standing on duty. These guards are paid for by the Jewish community. They are > not there to protect the children from the intentions of VB. > > Furthermore it is pretty clear that you picture the VB as the outcast, the > stupid ones, the crooked ones. Remind you that since the past elections (2 > weeks ago!) a few politicians are now jailed and that none of them is VB. Do > you really want the list -again- of all those mainstream politicians, trialed > and convicted, for fraud, theft etc? As to the capabilities of those not > convicted: see the actual state of affairs. > > Or should we take into account the real security situation -in Antwerp, > Brussels or Paris- which is constantly overruled by a state which political > caste has but the ambition to stay in power and which has clearly no clue as > how to respond to attacks on its own civilians? > > We are in a system where the civilian may not protect himself, the State will > do that. Jews do not believe that, never have. You call some of them -without > even knowing them - "not so smart" > > Tom De Moor The fact that there are problems is not something I deny. I'm saying that the VB is one of the worst solutions to the problems. There are sufficient links and quotes of Jewish in Antwerp stating that they are not trusting VB at all. Do you have some where they publicly state they do? Dimitri |
16 oktober 2006, 20:35 | #20 |
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Re: Our [Antwerp] Jewish community feels unsafe
"theoriginaldimi" <[email protected]> dixit:
> Fight your wars with your Muslim ennemies at Israel's borders, will > you. LOL. If you think that the struggle against Islamofascism only concerns Jews, you're dumber than I thought. It's just a matter of time before a Jihadi blows himself up in the Brussels subway or in a tram in Antwerpen. As Brussels has the HQ of the EU and NATO, it's a primary target for terrorists. > Yes, voting vor VB is a good idea because it scares your own people? > Sure. If as a result some of them pack their stuff and move to Israel even reluctantly, then it is OK to me. > You're still coming short on one name. I gave three of Jewish > politicians that have operated in Antwerp and on a national level. You > gave me nothing. Of course I can't give you none. VB is essentially a Flemish nationalist party. You can't expect Jews to belong to it. Likewise, you can't expect Flemings to belong to the Likud. > Quote: "Wearing Orthodox black suits and Homburg hats, the men were > carrying palm fronds in honor of the feast of Sukkot, celebrated this > weekend. That festival meant it was forbidden for Jews to cast their > votes, Jeremy Sulzbacher said, unless they had organized a proxy vote. > "Vlaams Belang doesn't convince Jewish people," he said. "Once they've > finished with the Muslims and the North Africans, who will they start > on next? They'll start on us, the Jews." I'd love to see some figures to confirm or deny that based on facts, not sheer speculation. > Then you don't walk around in Antwerp often. I go everyday to work there. I haven't seen any skinhead, but that does not mean they don't exist. However, unlike in East Germany, they are not a primary security concern. > This doesn't involve a bus driver, but a bus passenger. he was not > Jewish, but Belgian. There were no racial slurs before, during or > after the incident. If was a fight between an older guy that wanted > some young guys to be quite. The old guy died of a heart attack. > Nothing indicates that there were any racial motives involved. My point is that Jewish/Belgian people are nearly always the victims of these Arab youths. I doubt the incident would have ended up with a murder should the kids have been Belgian or Jewish. Now, I don't know if law and order means something for you, but I guess it certainly does for many hard- working citizens worried about the lawlessness and insecurity in their own cities. >> No. I am not aware of that, "off" course. Sounds like the usual >> anti-VB >> scaremongering. > > Actually it is written down in their programme. Look on their site, > and look it up. .. DEMOCRATIE Het Vlaams Belang kiest uitdrukkelijk voor de democratie als politiek model. Het volk beslist. Dat is meteen de kern van het Vlaams- Belangstandpunt terzake. Nevertheless, I don't have a crystal ball, and I don't know what the VB would do should they got into power. Meanwhile, I will give them the benefit of the doubt, in particular after seeing how the "democratic" parties that don't solve the problems of the citizens attack them. > You are the first Jewish that I heard declaring that what happened > during WW2 is a "secondary issue". For me, in 2006, certainly it is. Listen, there's some people in Israel that, even to date, boycott Germany and don't buy anything German. However, the bulk of the Israeli population moved on a long time ago, and even Sharon got a new BMW when he was PM. If a Jew does not vote for the VB because of the Flemish SS or whatever, I can understand that. However, some other might think that the only way to stop the Muslim invasion is voting for the VB. > We are overrun by Jews as well I > guess. Jews don't pose a threat to the Flemish way of life. They don't plant bombs. They don't blow buses up. They don't mug old people. They respect the law. They don't get into trouble. However, I don't want to sound opinionated or self-righteous. Are there bad apples in the Jewish community? Certainly, yes. But they are the exception, not the norm. >You might very well be the second largest religious minority > group in Antwerp. You're probably next on their list as well. I don't remember any open hostility from the VB against the Jews during the last years. BOLUDOVSKY |