Problemen met registreren of reageren op de berichten?
Een verloren wachtwoord?
Gelieve een mail te zenden naar [email protected] met vermelding van je gebruikersnaam.
|
Registreren kan je hier. Problemen met registreren of reageren op de berichten? Een verloren wachtwoord? Gelieve een mail te zenden naar [email protected] met vermelding van je gebruikersnaam. |
|
|||||||
| Registreer | FAQ | Forumreglement | Ledenlijst |
| Godsdienst en levensovertuiging In dit forum kan je discussiëren over diverse godsdiensten en levensovertuigingen. |
| Bekijk resultaten enquête: Heeft Jezus als historische figuur bestaan | |||
| Ja |
  
|
95 | 56,55% |
| Ik weet het niet, het interesseert me wel |
  
|
21 | 12,50% |
| Ik weet het niet, het interesseert me niet |
  
|
23 | 13,69% |
| Neen |
  
|
29 | 17,26% |
| Aantal stemmers: 168. Je mag niet stemmen in deze enquête | |||
 |
|
|
Discussietools |
25 september 2007, 22:40
|
#61 | |
|
Eur. Commissievoorzitter
Geregistreerd: 22 februari 2004
Locatie: where the birds sing a pretty song
Berichten: 8.389
|
Citaat:
Als Jezus niet bestaan heeft, dan moet er iemand anders bestaan hebben die de bergrede en al die parabels heeft verzonnen. Als die persoon bestaan heeft, waarom zou het dan niet Jezus zijn? Occams scheermes, weetuwel? Daarvoor hoef je natuurlijk nog niet te geloven in de mirakels of de verrijzenis. Laatst gewijzigd door Flippend Rund : 25 september 2007 om 22:45. |
|
|
|
|
25 september 2007, 23:13
|
#62 | |||
|
Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN
Geregistreerd: 24 januari 2005
Locatie: de BH van V
Berichten: 19.794
|
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
__________________
KEEP CASH ALIVE!!!! |
|||
|
|
|
|
25 september 2007, 23:15
|
#63 | |
|
Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN
Geregistreerd: 24 januari 2005
Locatie: de BH van V
Berichten: 19.794
|
Citaat:
__________________
KEEP CASH ALIVE!!!! |
|
|
|
|
|
25 september 2007, 23:16
|
#64 | |
|
Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN
Geregistreerd: 24 januari 2005
Locatie: de BH van V
Berichten: 19.794
|
Citaat:
__________________
KEEP CASH ALIVE!!!! |
|
|
|
|
|
25 september 2007, 23:36
|
#65 |
|
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 11 augustus 2007
Locatie: the united states and america
Berichten: 899
|
The historicity of Jesus concerns the historical authenticity of Jesus of Nazareth. Scholars often draw a distinction between Jesus as reconstructed through historical methods and the Christ of faith as understood through theological tradition. The historical figure of Jesus is of central importance to many religions, but especially Christianity and Islam, in which the historical details of Jesus’ life are essential.
Most scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.[1] A very small minority[2] [3] argue that Jesus never existed as a historical figure, but a purely symbolic or mythical figure syncretized from various non-Abrahamic deities and heroes.[4] The four canonical Gospels and the writings of Paul of the New Testament are among the earliest known documents relating to Jesus' life. Some scholars also hypothesize the existence of early texts such as the Signs Gospel and the Q document. There are arguments that the Gospel of Thomas is likewise an early text. Many later texts provide valuable historical information as well. Scholarly opinions on the historicity of the New Testament accounts are diverse. At the extremes, they range from the view that they are inerrant descriptions of the life of Jesus,[5] to the view that they provide no historical information about his life.[6] As with all historical sources, scholars ask: to what extent did the authors' motivations shape the texts, what sources were available to them, how soon after the events described did they write, and whether or not these factors lead to inaccuracies such as exaggerations or inventions. Contents [hide] 1 Earliest known sources 1.1 Christian writings 1.1.1 Gospels 1.1.2 Pauline Epistles 1.1.3 Ancient Creeds 1.1.4 New Testament apocrypha 1.1.4.1 Gnostic texts 1.2 Early Church fathers 1.3 Greco-Roman sources 1.3.1 Josephus 1.3.2 Tacitus 1.3.3 Suetonius 1.3.4 Pliny the Younger 1.3.5 Others 1.4 Jewish records 2 Jesus as a historical person 3 Jesus as myth 4 Notes 5 References 6 See also 7 External links [edit] Earliest known sources [edit] Christian writings Jesus is featured throughout the New Testament and other Early Christian writings, as can be seen in such works as the Gospels, the Pauline Epistles, the book of Acts, the writings of the early Church Fathers, and the New Testament apocrypha. [edit] Gospels Main articles: Gospels, Synoptic problem, and Authorship of the Johannine works P52, a papyrus fragment from a codex (c. 90-160), one of the earliest known New Testament manuscripts.The most detailed sources of historical information about Jesus in the Bible are the four canonical Gospels: the Gospel of Matthew; the Gospel of Mark; the Gospel of Luke; and the Gospel of John.[7] These Gospels are narrative accounts of the life of Jesus. They concentrate on his ministry, and conclude with his death and resurrection. The extent to which these sources are interrelated, or used related source material, is known as the synoptic problem. The date, authorship, access to eyewitnesses, and other essential questions of historicity depend on the various solutions to this problem. The four canonical Gospels are anonymous. The introduction to Luke mentions other accounts by eyewitnesses, and claims to have "diligently investigated all things from the beginning". The epilogue to John states that "these things" are testified to by the beloved disciple, whose "testimony we know ... is true".[8] The authors in antiquity who discussed the authorship of the Gospels generally asserted the following:[9] Matthew was written by Matthew, an apostle of Jesus; Mark was written by Mark, a disciple of Simon Peter, who was an apostle; Luke was written by Luke, who was a disciple of Paul; John was written by John, who was an apostle. The first three Gospels, known as the synoptic gospels, share much material. As a result of various scholarly hypotheses attempting to explain this interdependence, the traditional association of the texts with their authors has become the subject of criticism. Though some solutions retain the traditional authorship,[10] other solutions reject some or all of these claims. The solution most commonly held in academia today is the two-source hypothesis, which posits that Mark and a hypothetical 2nd source, called the Q document, were used as sources for Matthew and Luke. Other solutions, such as the Augustinian hypothesis and Griesbach hypothesis, posit that Matthew was written first. Scholars who accept the two-source hypothesis generally date Mark to around 70, with Matthew and Luke dating to 80-90.[11] Scholars who accept Matthean priority usually date the synoptic gospels to before 70, with some arguing as early as 40.[12] John is most often dated to 90-100,[13] though a date as early as the 60s, and as late as the second century have been argued by a few.[14] "Thus our prime sources about the life of Jesus were written within about fifty years of his death by people who perhaps knew him, but certainly by people who knew people who knew him. If this is beginning to sound slightly second hand, we may wish to consider two points. First... most ancient and medieval history was written from a much greater distance. Second, all the Gospel writers could have talked to people who were actually on the spot, and while perhaps not eyewitnesses themselves, their position is certainly the next best thing."[15] Mainstream scholars hold that the authors wrote with certain motivations and a view to a particular community and its needs. They regard it as virtually certain the authors relied on various sources, including their own knowledge and the testimony of eyewitnesses. The later authors did not write in ignorance of some texts that preceded them, as is claimed explicitly by the author of Luke. The extent to which the Gospels were subject to additions, redactions, or interpolations is the subject of textual criticism, which examines the extent to which a manuscript changed from its autograph, or the work as written by the original author, through manuscript transmission. Possible alterations in the Gospels include: Mark 16:8-20, Luke 22:19b–20,43–44, John 7:53-8:11. Other issues with the historicity of the Gospels include possible conflicts with each other, or with other historical sources. The most frequent suggestions of conflict relate to the Census of Quirinius as recounted in Luke, the two genealogies contained in Luke and Matthew, and the chronology of the Easter events.[16] [edit] Pauline Epistles Main articles: Pauline epistles and Authorship of the Pauline epistles Jesus is also the subject of the writings of Paul of Tarsus, who dictated[17] letters to various churches and individuals from c. 48-68. Paul was not an eyewitness of Jesus' life, though he knew some of Jesus' disciples including Simon Peter, and claimed knowledge of Jesus through visions. There are traditionally fourteen letters attributed to Paul, thirteen of which claim to be written by Paul, with one anonymous letter. Current scholarship is in a general consensus in considering at least seven of the letters to be written by Paul, with views varying concerning the remaining works. In his letters, Paul quoted Jesus several times,[18] and also offered details on the life of Jesus. In his First Epistle to the Thessalonians Paul says in chapter 2:14-15, speaking about his fellow Jews, that they "...killed the Lord Jesus..." See also Persecution of early Christians by the Jews. He also quotes Jesus in chapter 4:15. In his Epistle to the Galatians, Paul claims he went to Jerusalem three years after his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus. He had traveled in Arabia and back to Damascus before going to see Peter, whom Paul calls an apostle, and James, "the Lord's brother", believed by many to be James the Just. (1:18–20) Paul then says that fourteen years later he traveled back to Jerusalem, at which time he held a meeting with the Jerusalem Christians. Believed by most scholars to be the Council of Jerusalem, this was a debate with Paul arguing against the need for circumcision to be a member of the group. Paul says he won the argument and that Peter, James, and John agreed that he should be the preacher to the Gentiles. Peter later visited Paul at Antioch and associated with the Gentiles, but when certain friends of James showed up, they seem to have discouraged Peter from associating with the Gentiles, and Paul rebuked Peter for this. (2) Galatians is one of the undisputed letters of Paul and is early textual evidence for the existence of Jesus, as it relates that Jesus' "brother" and "apostles" were met by Paul. Acts of the Apostles, written at least twenty but probably thirty or forty years after Galatians, gives a more detailed account of the Council in chapter 15. In Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians he says in chapter 2:8 that the "...rulers of this age...", Paul's age, "...crucified the Lord...". He then quotes what he says are commands of "the Lord" regarding the unacceptability of divorce in 7:10-11 followed by his own "I say, not the Lord" Pauline privilege in 7:12-15. In 9:5 he references "the Lord's brothers" and their wives and again quotes Jesus in 9:14. Paul then gives a description of the Last Supper in 11:23-26. He then, in 15:3-8, talks about Jesus' death and resurrection and witnesses to it. Paul also talks about Jesus' human and divine natures in his letter to the Philippians in 2:5-11 and his letter to the Romans in 1:1-4. [edit] Ancient Creeds The authors whose works are contained in the New Testament sometimes quote from creeds, or confessions of faith, that obviously predate their writings. Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in Jerusalem.[19] Though embedded within the texts of the New Testament, these creeds are a distinct source for early Christianity. 1Corinthians 15:3-4 reads: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." This contains a Christian creed of pre-Pauline origin.[20] The antiquity of the creed has been located by many Biblical scholars to less than a decade after Jesus' death, originating from the Jerusalem apostolic community.[21] Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, "This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,"[22] whilst A. M. Hunter said, "The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony. It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability."[23] Other relevant creeds which predate the texts wherein they are found that have been identified are 1John 4:2: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God",[24] 2Timothy 2:8: "Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, this is my Gospel",[25] Romans 1:3-4: "regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.",[26] and 1Timothy 3:16: "He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory," an early creedal hymn.[27] [edit] New Testament apocrypha Jesus is a large factor in New Testament apocrypha, works excluded from the canon as it developed because they were judged not to be inspired. These texts are almost entirely dated to the mid second century or later, though a few texts, such as the Didache, may be first century in origin. Some of these works are discussed below: [edit] Gnostic texts Gnostic texts date to the mid second century at the earliest, and show a lack of attention to history, generally avoiding the standard historical narrative in favour of sayings framed in the structure of a private, and often secret revelation, and therefore emphasize allegory. The Gnostics' opinion of Jesus varied from viewing him as docetic to completely metaphorical, in all cases treating him as someone to allegorically attribute gnostic teachings to, his resurrection being regarded an allegory for enlightenment, in which all can take part. Nonetheless, certain Gnostic texts mention Jesus in the context of his earthly existence, and some scholars have argued that Gnostic texts could contain plausible traditions.[28] Examples of such texts include the Gospel of Truth, Treatise on Resurrection, and the Apocryphon of John, the latter of which opens with the following: It happened one day when John, the brother of James — who are sons of Zebedee — went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him: "Where is your master whom you followed?" And he said to them: "He has gone to the place from which he came." The Pharisee said to him: "This Nazarene deceived you all with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers."[29] Of all the Gnostic texts, however, the Gospel of Thomas had drawn the most attention. It contains a list of sayings attributed to Jesus. Though it lacks a narrative of Jesus treating his deeds in a historical sense, and though it is generally dated to the second century, other scholars contend for an early date of perhaps 50, citing a relationship to the hypothetical Q document among other reasons.[30] [edit] Early Church fathers Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and details of his life. Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome (c. 100),[31] Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110),[32] Justin Martyr,[33] and others. Perhaps the most significant Patristic sources are the early references of Papias and Quadratus (d. 124), mostly reported by Eusebius in the fourth century, which both mention eyewitnesses of Jesus’ ministry and healings who were still alive in their own time (the late first century). Papias, in giving his sources for the information contained in his (largely lost) commentaries, stated (according to Eusebius): …if by chance anyone who had been in attendance on the elders should come my way, I inquired about the words of the elders — [that is,] what [according to the elders] Andrew or Peter said, or Philip, or Thomas or James, or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord’s disciples, and whatever Aristion and the elder John, the Lord’s disciples, were saying.[34] Thus, while Papias was collecting his information (c. 90), Aristion and the elder John (who were Jesus’ disciples) were still alive and teaching in Asia minor, and Papias gathered information from people who had known them.[35] Another Father, Quadratus, who wrote an apology to the emperor Hadrian, was reported by Eusebius to have stated: The words of our Savior were always present, for they were true: those who were healed, those who rose from the dead, those who were not only seen in the act of being healed or raised, but were also always present, not merely when the Savior was living on earth, but also for a considerable time after his departure, so that some of them survived even to our own times.[36] By “our Savior” Quadratus means Jesus, and by “our times” it has been argued that he may refer to his early life, rather than when he wrote (117-124), which would be a reference contemporary with Papias.[37] [edit] Greco-Roman sources See also: Yeshu and Yuz Asaf Of the non-Christian writings from that time that have been preserved, very few mention Jesus or Christianity, and for that matter few of their authors showed much interest in Judea or the Near East in general.[citation needed] Nonetheless, there are passages relevant to Christianity in the works of four major non-Christian writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries – Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger. However, these are generally references to early Christians rather than a historical Jesus. Of the four, Josephus' writings, which document John the Baptist, James the Just, and possibly also Jesus, are of the most interest to scholars dealing with the historicity of Jesus (see below). Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions popular opinion about Christus, without historical details (see also: Tacitus on Jesus). There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius. Pliny condemned Christians as easily-led fools. [edit] Josephus Main article: Josephus on Jesus Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93. In it, Jesus is mentioned twice. In the second very brief mentioning, Josephus calls James, "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ".[38] This is considered by the majority of scholars to be authentic,[39] though a few have raised doubts.[40] More notably, in the Testimonium Flavianum, it is written: About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.[41] Concerns have been raised about the authenticity of the passage, at least in part, and it is widely held by scholars that part of the passage is an interpolation by a later scribe. Judging from Alice Whealey's 2003 survey of the historiography, it seems that the majority of modern scholars consider that Josephus really did write something here about Jesus, but that the text that has reached us is corrupt to a perhaps quite substantial extent. In the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Flavius Josephus, "The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations." There has been no consensus on which portions are corrupt, or to what degree. In antiquity, Origen recorded that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ,[42] as it seems to suggest in the quote above. Michael L. White argued against authenticity, citing that parallel sections of Josephus's Jewish War do not mention Jesus, and that some Christian writers as late as the third century, who quoted from the Antiquities, do not mention the passage.[43] While very few scholars believe the whole testimonium is genuine,[44] most scholars have found at least some authentic words of Josephus in the passage.[45] Certain scholars of Josephus's works have observed that this portion is written in his style.[46] There are two main reasons to believe Josephus did originally mention Jesus and that later the passage was later edited by a Christian into the form we have now. There is a passage from a 10th century Arab historian named Agapius of Manbij who was a Christian. He cites Josephus as having written: At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous. and many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not desert his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.[47] The text from which Agapius quotes is more conservative and is closer to what one would expect Josephus to have written. The similarities between the two passages imply a Christian author later removed the conservative tone and added interpolations.[48] The other reason to assume Josephus did originally mention Jesus was advanced by J. B. Lightfoot. He claimed if a later Christian editor would have added the paragraph wholesale into Josephus' work then it is likely it would have been placed next to John the Baptist's account which it is not.[citation needed] [edit] Tacitus Main article: Tacitus on Jesus Tacitus (c. 56–c. 117), writing c. 116, included in his Annals a mention of Christianity and Christ. In describing Nero's persecution of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome c. 64, he wrote: Nero fastened the guilt [of starting the blaze] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.[49] Tacitus simply refers to "Christus", the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah", rather than to the name "Jesus", and he refers to Pontius Pilate as a procurator, whereas a surviving inscription gives Pilate the title of prefect.[50] Concerning Tacitus's source, it was likely an imperial record,[clarify] and it has been controversially speculated that this may even have been one of Pilate's reports to the emperor.[51] R. E. Van Voorst noted the improbability that later Christians would have interpolated "such disparaging remarks about Christianity".[52] (See also the criterion of embarrassment.) Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman summarized the historical importance of this passage: "Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius's reign. We learn nothing, however, about the reason for this execution, or about Jesus' life and teachings."[53] [edit] Suetonius Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus (c. 69–140) wrote the following in his Lives of the Twelve Caesars about riots which broke out in the Jewish community in Rome under the emperor Claudius: "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome".[54] The event was noted in Acts 18:2. The term Chrestus also appears in some later texts applied to Jesus, and Robert Graves,[55] among others,[56] consider it a variant spelling of Christ, or at least a reasonable spelling error. On the other hand, Chrestus was itself a common name, particularly for slaves, meaning good or useful. Some scholars believe it just as likely that this passage is not a spelling error and does not refer to Jesus or Christians.[57] Because these events took place around 20 years after Jesus' death, the passage most likely is not referring to the person Jesus, although it could be referencing Christians, whom Suetonius also mentioned in regards to Nero and the fire of Rome.[58] As such, this passage offers little information about Jesus.[59] [edit] Pliny the Younger Pliny the Younger, the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajan c. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus". The name "Jesus" is not used. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ. They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food—but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations.[60] [edit] Others Thallus, whose identity is difficult to determine, is known to have written a history from the Trojan War to his own time, which was sometime in the first or early second century. His work has been lost. In discussing Jesus' crucifixion and subsequent darkness, Julius Africanus, writing c. 221, referenced the lost work of Thallus: On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.[61] Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, wrote: The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.[62] Celsus, though a late second-century critic of Christianity, accused Jesus of being a bastard child and a sorcerer; yet he never questions Jesus' historicity even though he hated Christianity and Jesus.[63] He is quoted as saying that Jesus was a "mere man".[64] The Acts of Pilate is a lost text, purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius (thus, it would have been among the commentaii principis). It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology (c. 150) to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus, who said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the "Acts of Pontius Pilate".[65] With the exception of Tertullian, no other writer is known to have mentioned the work, and Tertullian's reference says that Tiberius debated the details of Jesus' life before the Senate, an event that is almost universally considered absurd.[66] There is a later apocryphal text, undoubtedly fanciful, by the same name, and though it is generally thought to have been inspired by Justin's reference (and thus to post-date his Apology), it is possible that Justin actually mentioned this text, though that would give the work an unusually early date and therefore is not a straightforward identification.[67] [edit] Jewish records Main article: Yeshu The Talmud Sanhedrin 43a, which dates to the earliest period of composition (Tannaitic period) contains the following: On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. Forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried: "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.[68] The name Yeshu (ישו) uses the same letters as the abbreviation "Y.Sh.V." (יש״ו), which scribes use to stand for the longer phrase, "his name will be erased and its memory" (ימח שמו וזכרו Yemakh Shmo V-zikhro), which signifies a Jew convicted of enticing to idolatry, whose name has been blotted out.[citation needed] Thus, this may be referring to somebody other than Jesus.[citation needed] [edit] Jesus as a historical person Main articles: Historical Jesus and Quest for the Historical Jesus The Historical Jesus is a reconstruction of Jesus using modern historical methods. Most historians consider the accounts of Jesus' life to be historically useful. Paul Barnett pointed out that "scholars of ancient history have always recognized the 'subjectivity' factor in their available sources" and "have so few sources available compared to their modern counterparts that they will gladly seize whatever scraps of information that are at hand." He noted that modern history and ancient history are two separate disciplines, with differing methods of analysis and interpretation. [69] In The Historical Figure of Jesus, E.P. Sanders used Alexander the Great as a paradigm—the available sources tell us much about Alexander’s deeds, but nothing about his thoughts. "The sources for Jesus are better, however, than those that deal with Alexander" and "the superiority of evidence for Jesus is seen when we ask what he thought."[70] Thus, Sanders considers the quest for the Historical Jesus to be much closer to a search for historical details on Alexander than to those historical figures with adequate documentation. Consequently, scholars like Sanders, Geza Vermes, John P. Meier, David Flusser, James H. Charlesworth, Raymond E. Brown, Paula Fredriksen and John Dominic Crossan argue that, although many readers are accustomed to thinking of Jesus solely as a theological figure whose existence is a matter only of religious debate, the four canonical Gospel accounts are based on source documents written within decades of Jesus' lifetime, and therefore provide a basis for the study of the "historical" Jesus. These historians also draw on other historical sources and archaeological evidence to reconstruct the life of Jesus in his historical and cultural context. [edit] Jesus as myth Main article: Jesus myth hypothesis Further information: Jesus Christ and comparative mythology A few scholars have questioned the existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure. Among the proponents of non-historicity have been Bruno Bauer in the 19th century. The non-historicity thesis was somewhat influential in biblical studies during the early 20th century, and has recently been put forward in popular literature by a number of authors. Arguments for non-historicity have been advanced by George Albert Wells in The Jesus Legend and The Jesus Myth. Popular proponents have included the writers Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy in their books The Jesus Mysteries and Jesus and the Lost Goddess. Other proponents of non-historicity are Robert M. Price and Earl Doherty (The Jesus Puzzle ). The views of scholars who entirely reject Jesus' historicity are summarized in the chapter on Jesus in Will Durant's Caesar and Christ; they are based on a suggested lack of eyewitness, a lack of direct archaeological evidence, the failure of certain ancient works to mention Jesus, and some similarities between early Christianity and contemporary mythology.[71] Michael Grant stated that the view is derived from a lack of application of historical methods: …if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. ... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary.[72] Overall, the unhistoricity theory is regarded as effectively refuted by almost all Biblical scholars and historians[73],[74] & [75]. [edit] Notes ^ Raymond E. Brown, The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the Grave (New York: Doubleday, Anchor Bible Reference Library 1994), p. 964; D. A. Carson, et al., p. 50-56; Shaye J.D. Cohen, From the Maccabees to the Mishnah, Westminster Press, 1987, p. 78, 93, 105, 108; John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, HarperCollins, 1991, p. xi-xiii; Michael Grant, p. 34-35, 78, 166, 200; Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, Alfred A. Knopf, 1999, p. 6-7, 105-110, 232-234, 266; John P. Meier, vol. 1:68, 146, 199, 278, 386, 2:726; E.P. Sanders, pp. 12-13; Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew (Philadelphia: Fortress Press 1973), p. 37.; Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time, Kregel, 1991, pp. 1, 99, 121, 171; N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions, HarperCollins, 1998, pp. 32, 83, 100-102, 222; Ben Witherington III, pp. 12-20. ^ "The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted." - Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16. ^ "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more.” Burridge, R & Gould, G, Jesus Now and Then, Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2004, p.34 ^ Michael Martin; John Mackinnon Robertson ^ Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Leicester: Inter-Varsity Press, 1994), pages 90-91 ^ Howard M. Teeple (March 1970). "The Oral Tradition That Never Existed". Journal of Biblical Literature 89 (1): 56-68. ^ On John, see S. Byrskog, "Story as History - History as Story", in Wissenschaftliche Untersuchungen zum Neuen Testament 123 (Tübingen: Mohr, 2000; reprinted Leiden: Brill, 2002), p. 149; Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses (Cambridge: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2006) p. 385. ^ John 21:24. ^ See the commentary by St. Augustine on hypotyposeis.org; also see the fragments in Eusebius Hist. Eccl. 3.39.1, 3.39.15, 6.14.1, 6.25. ^ For an overview of the synoptic problem that discusses the traditional view in detail, see Drane, Introducing the New Testament (San Francisco: Harper Row, 1986) chapter 11. Also, see Donald Guthrie, New Testament Introduction (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1990) ^ Raymond E. Brown. An Introduction to the New Testament. New York: Anchor Bible. ^ J.A.T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament. Philadelphia: Westminster Press. 1985. pp.86-92. ^ Brown 7 ^ For an early date, see: J. A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament, and William F. Albright, Towards a More Conservative View, in Christianity Today (18 January 1963); for a late date, see R. Bultmann, Kerygma and Myth: A Theological Debate; for a brief overview, see also this article at bethinking.org ^ Jo Ann H. Moran Cruz and Richard Gerberding, Medieval Worlds: An Introduction to European History Houghton Mifflin Company 2004, pp. 44-45 ^ Genealogies Brown p. 236, Ehrman, p. 121; census Brown p. 321, Ehrman, p. 118; Easter events Ehrman, p. 277 and see An Easter Challenge For Christians by Dan Barker ^ Joseph Barber Lightfoot in his Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians writes: "At this point [Gal 6:11] the apostle takes the pen from his amanuensis, and the concluding paragraph is written with his own hand. From the time when letters began to be forged in his name (2 Thess 2:2; 3:17) it seems to have been his practice to close with a few words in his own handwriting, as a precaution against such forgeries… In the present case he writes a whole paragraph, summing up the main lessons of the epistle in terse, eager, disjointed sentences. He writes it, too, in large, bold characters (Gr. pelikois grammasin), that his handwriting may reflect the energy and determination of his soul." ^ Society of Biblical Studies, The Harper Collins NRSV Study Bible, San Francisco: Harper Collins Publishers, 1989, 2141, see Rom 14:14; 1 Cor 7:10; 9:14 ^ A basic text is that of Oscar Cullmann, available in English in a translation by J. K. S. Reid titled, The Earliest Christian Confessions (London: Lutterworth, 1949) ^ Neufeld, The Earliest Christian Confessions (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) p. 47; Reginald H. Fuller, The Formation of the Resurrection Narratives (New York: Macmillan, 1971) p. 10; Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jesus – God and Man translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, The Earlychurch: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology, ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 64; Hans Conzelmann, 1 Corinthians, translated James W. Leitch (Philadelphia: Fortress 1969) p. 251; Bultmann, Theology of the New Testament vol. 1 pp. 45, 80-82, 293; R. E. Brown, The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81, 92 ^ see Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jesus – God and Man translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968)p. 90; Oscar Cullmann, The Early church: Studies in Early Christian History and Theology, ed. A. J. B. Higgins (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1966) p. 66-66; R. E. Brown, The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection of Jesus (New York: Paulist Press, 1973) pp. 81; Thomas Sheehan, First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity (New York: Random House, 1986 pp. 110, 118; Ulrich Wilckens, Resurrection translated A. M. Stewart (Edinburgh: Saint Andrew, 1977) p. 2; Hans Grass, Ostergeschen und Osterberichte, Second Edition (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck und Ruprecht, 1962) p96; Grass favors the origin in Damascus. ^ Hans von Campenhausen, "The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb," in Tradition and Life in the Church (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44 ^ Archibald Hunter, Works and Words of Jesus (1973) p. 100 ^ Cullmann, Confessions p. 32 ^ Bultmann, Theology of the New Testament vol 1, pp. 49, 81; Joachim Jeremias, The Eucharistic Words of Jesus translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102 ^ Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jesus – God and Man translated Lewis Wilkins and Duane Pribe (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1968) pp. 118, 283, 367; Neufeld, The Earliest Christian Confessions (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 50; C. H. Dodd, The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1980) p. 14 ^ Reginald Fuller, The Foundations of New Testament Christology (New York: Scriner's, 1965) pp. 214, 216, 227, 239; Joachim Jeremias, The Eucharistic Words of Jesus translated Norman Perrin (London: SCM Press, 1966) p. 102; Neufeld, The Earliest Christian Confessions (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964) pp. 7, 9, 128 ^ James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library in English (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1977) and especially his essay in Hedrick and Hodgson, Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1986); Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels (New York: Random House, 1979); R. E. Brown, "The Christians Who Lost Out" in The New York Times Book Review, 20 January 1980 p. 3; Koester in Robinson, Nag Hammadi in English, vol. 2 pp. 4, 47, 68, 150-154, 180. It is important to stress that all these scholars, with perhaps the exception of Pagels (whom the rest were critical of on this point) distanced themselves from using the texts as historical sources for the most part, and only proceeded to consider information therein with great caution. ^ Apocryphon of John 1:5-17 ^ Miller 6; it also is not quoted in any contemporary writings, and suffers from a paucity of manuscripts, see these articles at answers.org and ntcanon.org ^ Clement, Corinthians 42 ^ Ignatius, Letter to the Trallians 9, Letter to the Smyrneans 1, 3 ^ Justin, First Apology 30, 32, 34-35, 47-48, 50; Dialogue with Trypho 12, 77, 97, 107-108, &c. ^ translation by Richard Bauckham in his Jesus and the Eyewitnesses (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-16. ^ Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 15-21. ^ Quoted in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4.3.2, translation by Richard Bauckham in his Jesus and the Eyewitnesses (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), p. 53. ^ Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses (Cambridge: Eerdmans, 2006), pp. 53l. ^ Josephus Antiquities 20:9.1 ^ Louis H. Feldman, "Josephus" Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pp. 990–91 ^ Testimonium Flavianum. EarlyChristanWritings.com. Retrieved on 2006-10-07. ^ Josephus Antiquities 18.3.3 ^ Origin Commentary on Matthew 10.17; Against Celsus 1.47 ^ Michael L. White, From Jesus to Christianity. HarperCollinsPublishers, 2004. P. 97–98 ^ i.e. Daniel-Rops, Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries p. 21 and G. R. Habermas, The Historical Jesus p. 193 ^ John Drane Introducing the New Testament (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1986) p. 138; John P. Meier. A Marginal Jew (Anchor Bible Reference Library, 1991) v.1; also, James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988) p. 96 ^ Henri Daniel-Rops, Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries p. 21; J.N.D. Anderson, Christianity: The Witness of History (London: Tyndale, 1969)p. 20; F.F. Bruce, New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1967) p. 108 ^ Agapius Kitab al-'Unwan, 239-240 ^ F.E Peters, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam Vol.1 p. 149 ^ Tacitus, Annals 15.44 (Latin, English and also here) ^ Robert Boyd, Tells, Tombs, and Treasure (Grand Rapids: Baker 1969) p. 183 plate available online here ^ F.F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974) p. 23 ^ Robert E. Van Voorst (2000). Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence. Wm. B. Eerdmans, p. 43. ^ Ehrman, p. 212 ^ Iudaeos, impulsore Chresto, assidue tumultuantes Roma expulit; [1] ^ see his translation of Suetonius, Claudius 25, in The Twelve Caesars (Baltimore: Penguin, 1957), and his introduction p. 7, cf. p. 197 ^ Francois Amiot, Jesus A Historical Person p. 8; F. F. Bruce, Christian Origins p. 21 ^ R. T. France. The Evidence for Jesus. (2006). Regent College Publishing ISBN 1573833703. p. 42; Jewish Encyclopedia: Rome: Expelled Under Tiberius: "... in 49-50, in consequence of dissensions among them regarding the advent of the Messiah, they were forbidden to hold religious services. The leaders in the controversy, and many others of the Jewish citizens, left the city." ^ Suetonius, Nero 16 ^ Ehrman, p. 212 ^ Pliny to Trajan, Letters 10.96–97 ^ Julius Africanus, Extant Writings XVIII in Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. A. Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130 ^ Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, translated by H. W. Fowler (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949) vol. 4 ^ Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) pp. 78–79. ^ http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/Ap0301/CELSUS.htm ^ Justin Martyr, First Apology 48 ^ see Tertullian, Apology V ^ for a discussion, see Daniel-Rops, Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries, p. 14 ^ The Babylonian Talmud, translated I. Epstein (London: Soncio, 1935), vol. 3, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 ^ Paul Barnett, "Is the New Testament History?", p.1. ^ Sanders 1993:3 ^ Durant 1944:553-7 ^ M. Grant, Jesus: An Historian's Review, pp. 199-200 ^ Bruce, FF (1982), New Testament Documents : Are They Reliable?, InterVarsity Press, ISBN 087784691X ^ Herzog II, WR (2005), Prophet and Teacher, WJK, ISBN 0664225284 ^ Komoszewski, JE; Sawyer, MJ & Wallace, DB (2006). Reinventing Jesus. Kregel Publications, 195f. ISBN 978-0825429828. [edit] References Adam, Karl (1933). Jesus Christus. Augsburg: Haas. Adam, Karl (1934). The Son of God (English ed.). London: Sheed and Ward. Brown, Raymond E. (1997) An Introduction to the New Testament. Doubleday ISBN 0-385-24767-2 Daniel Boyarin (2004). Border Lines. The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity. University of Pennsylvania Press. Doherty, Earl (1999). The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? : Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus. ISBN 0-9686014-0-5 Drews, Arthur & Burns, C. Deslisle (1998). The Christ Myth (Westminster College-Oxford Classics in the Study of Religion). ISBN 1-57392-190-4 Durant, Will (1944). Caesar and Christ, Simon & Schuster, ISBN 0-671-11500-6 Ehrman, Bart D. (2004). The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. New York: Oxford. ISBN 0-19-515462-2. Ellegård, Alvar Jesus – One Hundred Years Before Christ: A Study In Creative Mythology, (London 1999). France, R.T. (2001). The Evidence for Jesus. Hodder & Stoughton. Freke, Timothy & Gandy, Peter. The Jesus Mysteries - was the original Jesus a pagan god? ISBN 0-7225-3677-1 Fuller, Reginald H. (1965). The Foundations of New Testament Christology. Scribners. ISBN 0-684-15532-X. George, Augustin & Grelot, Pierre (Eds.) (1992). Introducción Cr�*tica al Nuevo Testamento. Herder. ISBN 84-254-1277-3 Grant, Michael, Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels, Scribner, 1995. ISBN 0-684-81867-1 Habermas, Gary R. (1996). The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ ISBN 0-89900-732-5 Leidner, Harold (2000). The Fabrication of the Christ Myth. ISBN 0-9677901-0-7 Meier, John P., A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Anchor Bible Reference Library, Doubleday (1991), v. 1, The Roots of the Problem and the Person, ISBN 0-385-26425-9 (1994), v. 2, Mentor, Message, and Miracles, ISBN 0-385-46992-6 (2001), v. 3, Companions and Competitors, ISBN 0-385-46993-4 Mendenhall, George E. (2001). Ancient Israel's Faith and History: An Introduction to the Bible in Context. ISBN 0-664-22313-3 Messori, Vittorio (1977). Jesus hypotheses. St Paul Publications. ISBN 0-85439-154-1 Miller, Robert J. Editor (1994) The Complete Gospels. Polebridge Press. ISBN 0-06-065587-9 New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha, New Revised Standard Version. (1991) New York, Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-528356-2 Price, Robert M. (2000). Deconstructing Jesus. Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-758-9 Strobel, Lee. (1998) The Case for Christ. Zondervan. ISBN 0-310-20930-7 Voorst, Robert Van (2000). Jesus Outside of the New Testament. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Wells, George A. (1988). The Historical Evidence for Jesus. Prometheus Books. ISBN 0-87975-429-X Wells, George A. (1998). The Jesus Myth. ISBN 0-8126-9392-2 Wells, George A. (2004). Can We Trust the New Testament?: Thoughts on the Reliability of Early Christian Testimony. ISBN 0-8126-9567-4 Wilson, Ian (2000). Jesus: The Evidence (1st ed.). Regnery Publishing. [edit] See also Authorship of the Pauline Epistles Alleged inconsistencies in the Bible Cultural and historical background of Jesus Historical Jesus Death and Resurrection of Jesus The God Who Wasn't There History of Christianity Jesus-Myth Jesus Seminar Markan priority New Testament apocrypha Sathya Sai Baba#Reported Miracles Textual criticism Toledoth Jeschu Two source hypothesis Yuz Asaf [edit] External links Extrabiblical, Non-Christian Witnesses to Jesus before 200 a.d., an argument from a Christian point of view. From Jesus to Christ, a PBS site. Writings from William Lane Craig on the Historical Jesus Why I Believe The New Testament Is Historically Reliable by Gary Habermas Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ, a Christian discussion on the reliability of textual evidence. The Historical Jesus and Mythical Christ by Gerald Massey Historicity Of Jesus FAQ (1994), a critical look at textual evidence. Jesus: A Historical Reconstruction The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?, by F.F. Bruce. The Origins of Christianity, a discussion of potential syncretisms with other religions. The Quest of the Historical Jesus: A Critical Study of its Progress from Reimarus to Wrede, by Albert Schweitzer Scholarly opinions on the Jesus Myth, by Christopher Price Quest for the Historical Jesus The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark A review of Dennis R. MacDonald's book by Richard Carrier Arguments that a historical Jesus never existed Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus" |
|
|
|
|
25 september 2007, 23:37
|
#66 |
|
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 11 augustus 2007
Locatie: the united states and america
Berichten: 899
|
als op een link klikken net iets te veel gevraagd is voor uw rechterhersenhelft, dan maar een copy paste/.
|
|
|
|
|
25 september 2007, 23:40
|
#67 | |
|
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 11 augustus 2007
Locatie: the united states and america
Berichten: 899
|
Citaat:
|
|
|
|
|
|
25 september 2007, 23:41
|
#68 | |
|
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 11 augustus 2007
Locatie: the united states and america
Berichten: 899
|
Citaat:
|
|
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 00:18
|
#69 | |||||||||||||||||
|
Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN
Geregistreerd: 24 januari 2005
Locatie: de BH van V
Berichten: 19.794
|
Had ik al gelezen
Sommige mensen reageren soms raar eens in het hoekje zijn gedreven  Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
__________________
KEEP CASH ALIVE!!!! Laatst gewijzigd door Gun : 26 september 2007 om 00:22. |
|||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 00:44
|
#70 | |
|
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 11 augustus 2007
Locatie: the united states and america
Berichten: 899
|
Ik heb snel enkele zaken gehighlight.
Citaat:
|
|
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 00:46
|
#71 | |
|
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 11 augustus 2007
Locatie: the united states and america
Berichten: 899
|
Citaat:
ja. blabla. natuurlijk kunnen er kanttekeningen gemaakt worden bij het bestaan van jezus. dat is deel 1 van mijn vergelijking. dat je dat nu nog niet doorhebt. Laatst gewijzigd door Trajanu$ : 26 september 2007 om 00:47. |
|
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 01:29
|
#72 | |
|
Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN
Geregistreerd: 24 januari 2005
Locatie: de BH van V
Berichten: 19.794
|
Citaat:
__________________
KEEP CASH ALIVE!!!! |
|
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 01:34
|
#73 | |
|
Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN
Geregistreerd: 24 januari 2005
Locatie: de BH van V
Berichten: 19.794
|
Citaat:
Dank Spijtig van mijn verspilde tijd.
__________________
KEEP CASH ALIVE!!!! |
|
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 09:08
|
#74 | |||
|
Minister
Geregistreerd: 27 november 2006
Berichten: 3.816
|
Citaat:
Citaat:
Citaat:
|
|||
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 09:48
|
#75 | |
|
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 6 september 2007
Berichten: 5.061
|
Citaat:
Koran=zelfde liedje. Konklusie: we zullen het nooit met zekerheid weten, wat er waar is, en wat niet waar is in al deze sprookjes. Zand erover en vergeten.De toekomst ligt voor ons. |
|
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 11:39
|
#76 | |
|
Provinciaal Statenlid
Geregistreerd: 22 december 2006
Berichten: 615
|
Citaat:
__________________
:: Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. -- Steven Weinberg :: Religion is mankind's "original sin" -- Christopher Hitchens :: Religions are fossilized philosophies -- Simon Blackburn |
|
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 12:03
|
#77 | |
|
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 28 oktober 2006
Berichten: 40.545
|
Citaat:
We proberen alleen achter de waarheid te komen. Niet meer en niet minder. Laatst gewijzigd door system : 26 september 2007 om 12:12. |
|
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 12:24
|
#78 |
|
Banneling
Geregistreerd: 28 oktober 2006
Berichten: 40.545
|
[quote=Visjnu;2957470]Maar wie zou dit anders kunnen zijn? Welke andere gekruisigde rondreizende filosoferende figuur zouden deze christenen dan gevolgend kunnen hebben? Zelfs al wordt hij niet bij naam genoemd, om welke reden zou men moeten twijfelen dat het hier over de man die wij Jezus van Nazaret noemen gaat?
Daar gaat het juist over. Dat is niet van Lucianus, maar komt uit de Octavius van Minucius Felix! Dat is volgens mij zelfs een uitspraak die door een fictief figuur gedaan wordt Dat is zeker van Lucianus. Minucius Felix bevestigt. Caecilius in de Octavius van Minucius Felix geeft ons zelfs details dienaangaande: "Verder is het verhaal over de inwijding van de neofieten even verfoeilijk als vermaard: een baby wordt bedekt met deeg om hen die nergens op bedacht zijn te misleiden, en zo aan de kandidaat voor de inwijding in de heilsgeheimen voorgezet. De onnozele neofiet wordt ertoe uitgenodigd toe te slaan, terwijl dat zogenaamd geen gevaar kan vanwege de laag deeg, en zo doodt hij die baby met onzichtbare aan het oog onttrokken wonden. Diens bloed likken zij, godslasterlijk dorstig (!) op, diens ledematen verdelen zij om strijd, met dit offerdier bekrachtigen zij hun verbond… Deze heilige handelingen zijn walgelijker dan welke vorm van heiligschennis ook. " Horror dus van de bovenste plank bedreven door de christenen, zo heette het (Minucius Felix, Octavius, 8,5). Ik heb nooit gezegd dat Lucianus van Samosata dit ontkent. Ik zeg alleen dat hij het heeft over een 'sofist die gekruisigd was en de christenen de goden van Griekenland hadden verlaten' en dat hij dingen weet over de christenen 'van horen zeggen' of van 'zo vertelt men'. Ja en wat kunnen we historisch hier nu mee. Laatst gewijzigd door system : 26 september 2007 om 12:30. |
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 12:26
|
#79 | |
|
Europees Commissaris
Geregistreerd: 3 juli 2003
Locatie: Antwerpen-Deurne
Berichten: 7.132
|
Citaat:
Er zou een "monotheistosch stedelijk systeem" bestaan hebben in het Midden-oosten waarbij elke stad zijn "eigen" "enige" god aanbad - dit sloot echter de "God" resp. "Goden" van de andere steden niet uit. De strijd en naijver tussen de diverse steden had als het ware een spiegelbeeld in het rijk van de "goden". Als je het oude testament leest valt het op dat men het bestaan van "andere goden" in feite niet ontkent maar ze ziet als "valse goden" die geen recht op aanbidding verdienen, ik dat eerder als een aanzet tot monotheïsme dan monotheïsme. Hetzelfde geldt overigens voor het bhoeddisme waar de "goden" als ondergeschikt gezien worden aan de uiteindelijke "verlichting" en in wezen niet ontkent worden. In wezen is monotheïsme een ontkenning van het bestaan van "goden" en een bevestiging dat er slechts één god bestaat, met uitsluiting van alle andere "hemelse wezens".
__________________
Deze gebruikersnaam wordt niet meer benut - maar wel mijn werkelijke naam : Roger Verhiest |
|
|
|
|
|
26 september 2007, 12:32
|
#80 | ||
|
Minister
Geregistreerd: 27 november 2006
Berichten: 3.816
|
Citaat:
Citaat:
 Minucius Felix is een christen en wordt als een van de eerste apologisten beschouwd. |
||
|
|
|
|
|
|
