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Perm. Vertegenwoordiger VN
Geregistreerd: 7 februari 2006
Berichten: 19.121
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Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Argusx43
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Om te beginnen heeft dit ook maar niets met evolutie te maken, en verder, even stap per stap dat artikel de grond in boren:
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Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door creationism
1. Mountain rearranged beyond recognition in nine hours.
MSH was acclaimed the most beautiful of the Cascade peaks. Cone-shaped and snow-covered, it towered over heavily-forested deep ravines with a crystal clear lake to its north. In March of 1980, magma began moving up into the mountain wedging it apart. A powerful earthquake at 8:32 a.m., on May 18, caused the north slope to plunge into the valleys below, releasing the pressure within with a lateral, northward, fan-shaped explosion. This initial eight minute blast destroyed 230 square miles of forest. The mountain continued to erupt until evening, expending the power of 20,000 Hiroshima-class atomic bombs. In those nine hours, the top 1/4 and entire center of the mountain disappeared, leaving a vast, gaping, horseshoe-shaped crater. Deep ravines were filled, 250’ of material was deposited on the bottom of the lake, and the river that drained the north and northwest sides of the mountain was buried under an average of 150’ of deposit. In just nine hours the region had become a hideous, lifeless moonscape.
For 150 years geological evolution minimized the role of catastrophic events. Yet the enormous geological change produced by this nine-hour eruption of a minor volcano would take a million years of gradual change.
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Wel, de essentie van het artikel (dat wat in't rood staat) is een vals argument, evolutietheorie minimaliseerd geen catastrofes, in tegendeel, catastrofische evenementen op globale schaal bevestigen evolutie (zie de ijstijden)
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2. Canyons formed in five months.
In the five months following the eruption two canyons were formed by mud and pyroclastic flows, establishing drainages for the 1.5 x 2.0 mile crater. The primary drainage, Step Canyon, is up to 700’ deep. To its east is Loowit Canyon. Both canyons cut through 100’ of solid rock. Creeks flow through each canyon. The typical evolutionary explanation is that a creek slowly forms a canyon over vast ages. In this case we know that the canyons were formed quickly; then a stream began to run through them. Textbooks say the most spectacular canyon in the world, the Grand Canyon, was formed by stream erosion over a hundred million years. Now scientists who specialize in geological erosion believe it was formed rapidly just like these canyons at MSH.
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Misleidende speudo-wetenschap:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH581_1.html
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Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door talkorigins
- The sediments on Mount St. Helens were unconsolidated volcanic ash, which is easily eroded. The Grand Canyon was carved into harder materials, including well-consolidated sandstone and limestone, hard metamorphosed sediments (the Vishnu schist), plus a touch of relatively recent basalt.
- The walls of the Mount St. Helens canyon slope 45 degrees. The walls of the Grand Canyon are vertical in places.
- The canyon was not entirely formed suddenly. The canyon along Toutle River has a river continuously contributing to its formation. Another canyon also cited as evidence of catastrophic erosion is Engineer's Canyon, which was formed via water pumped out of Spirit Lake over several days by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.
- The streams flowing down Mount St. Helens flow at a steeper grade than the Colorado River does, allowing greater erosion.
- The Grand Canyon (and canyons further up and down the Colorado River) is more than 100,000 times larger than the canyon on Mount St. Helens. The two are not really comparable.
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3. Badlands formed in five days.
Badlands topography is found in the Southwest and in South Dakota. It occurs where loose material has been eroded in areas of rock structures, leaving a jagged but picturesque landscape. The standard explanation for such landforms is that water, over the centuries, washed away the loose materials, leaving free-standing towering rock patterns. At MSH the massive landslide carried huge amounts of ice and snow with it, burying them in the deep valley to the north. Throughout the day 30’ of 550 degree F. ash was also deposited, which quickly melted that ice, causing it to “flash” to steam. This is the same energy process that caused the explosions up in the mountain throughout the day. Water expands 1700 times when it turns to steam. When this happens instantaneously, it is an explosion. Eventually through similar explosions all the water was used up.
When the red hot ash covering the buried ice and snow in the valley caused that ice to melt and “flash” to steam, something called “steam explosion pits” (up to 125’ deep) were formed. They had nearly vertical sides until gravity collapsed them to produce a “rill and gully” effect, one of the features of badlands topography. (Rills are small gullies). The great badlands features in the US could also have been produced by catastrophic forces and some by volcanic action.
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En dit zou ....wat bewijzen?
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4. Layered Strata Formed in Three Hours.
On June 12, 1980 a third explosive eruption produced 25’ of stratification that amazed geologists. Successive layers are traditionally thought to require long periods of time to form; yet upwards of 100 layers accumulated mostly between the nighttime hours of 9 and 12. While a plume swiftly ascended nine miles above the mountain, wave after wave of pyroclastic flows began hurtling out of the crater and down the north slope, each dusting the valley below with another lamination. Measuring from a fraction of an inch to over a yard in thickness, each took from a few seconds to a few minutes to form.
Geologist Steven Austin described these pyroclastic flows as ground-hugging, fluidized, turbulent slurries of fine volcanic debris. They moved down the mountainside at hurricane speeds and left deposits of 1000 degrees F. One would expect each deposit to be homogenized & thoroughly mixed. Remarkably these high-velocity slurries of red-hot ash and pumice separated into coarse and fine particles of perfectly defined layers. Such features follow laws governing flows demonstrated in laboratory sedimentation tanks.
Similar thin layering appears in the Tapeats Sandstones of the Grand Canyon. Conventional wisdom says they were formed by slow and continuous sedimentation over long ages. Both gas-charged slurries which formed the MSH strata and water-charged slurries which formed the Tapeats strata follow the same laws of physics. The volcano has demonstrated that such formations can be formed rapidly. A global flood would have produced Tapeats in a brief time.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyroclastic_flow
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icr-science.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH581.html
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5. River System Formed in Nine Hours.
The landslide of May 18 had buried the river and highway to Spirit Lake to an average 150’. It also buried most other drainages in the 23 square miles of the Upper Toutle Valley and plugged the valley’s mouth. For twenty-two months no established path for water to the Pacific Ocean existed.
Then, on March 19, 1982, an eruption melted a large snow pack that had accumulated in the crater over the winter. The waters mixed with loose material on the slopes of the mountain creating an enormous mudflow. In nine hours while no eye watched, the mudflow carved an integrated system of drainages over much of the valley and reopened the way to the Pacific Ocean. The drainages included at least three canyons 100’ deep. One was nicknamed “The Little Grand Canyon of the Toutle” because it is a 1/40th scale model of the Grand Canyon.
Much water (or mud) accomplishes rapidly what a little water (or mud) takes an eternity to accomplish.
Evolutionary geologists assigned long periods of time to the formation of the 16,000 square mile Channeled Scablands of Eastern Washington. In the ‘70’s they finally acknowledged that this vast geologic formation which includes the Grand Coulee was formed mostly in two days as a result of a catastrophic event. Catastrophic events best explain the great erosionary formations on the earth’s surface. The histories of nearly 300 people groups speak of an event adequate to the job--the Global Flood.
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Zie eerder.
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6. Sinking Logs Look Like Many Aged Forests in Just Ten Years.
A million trees were washed into Spirit Lake the day of the main eruption. As the years go by one by one they become waterlogged and sink to the bottom. Dense root wood is still a part of 10% of the logs. Those logs sink to the bottom in an upright position and their roots quickly become covered by the continuing sedimentation washing into the lake. They give the appearance they grew and died where they are deposited, one forest on top of another over long periods of time.
Such formations are found in other places, including Specimen Ridge in Yellowstone National Park. There, geologists found forests “rooted” in 27 different layers in the ridge and concluded they were observing 27 successive forests. The interpretive sign at Specimen Ridge expressed their error. It read: “Buried within the volcanic rocks that compose the mountain are twenty-seven distinct layers of fossil forest that flourished 50 million years ago.”
Today the truth is out and the sign is gone. Scientists realized that the Spirit Lake phenomena explains Specimen Ridge. The trees floated on a lake, became waterlogged and sank to the bottom over a period of time, giving the appearance of multiple forests that grew one on top of another. The 50 million year formation could have formed in just a few years plus the time necessary for petrifying the logs (100 to 1000 years).
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http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/poly...llowstone.html
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Yellowstone National Park (U.S.) Fossil Forests
Some literature and other presentations claim the stacked "fossil forests" in Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, United States, do not represent separate, successional forest development. For example, Steve Austin makes this claim in a video tape available from the ICR. Rather than being buried in place, it is claimed that these stumps are transported, and therefore they could be deposited in a short time, rather than the long time it would take for growth of a forest, burial, and growth and burial of each of the succeeding forests. This claim is not supported by the evidence. Several characteristics can distinguish between stumps that are transported and those that were buried in place (see Fritz, 1980 and the citations in Fritz, 1984, quoted below). The trees at Yellowstone have been examined, and only some tree specimens at some localities are transported. The Specimen Ridge examples, which are most commonly cited, consist of in-place stumps.
Like the modern environments around Mt. St. Helens, there is potential to bury stumps in-place *and* to transport them upright in a variety of sedimentary environments (although burial in-place is far more common). Distinguishing the two (or even recognizing the presence of both) is not difficult. To simply say, "tree stumps can be transported, so all occurrences can be dismissed", is incorrect. The vast majority of occurrences can not be explained by transport.
References and quotes
Fritz, W.J., 1980. Reinterpretation of the depositional environment of the Yellowstone "fossil forests". Geology, v.8, p.309-313.
Yuretich, R.F., 1984. Yellowstone fossil forests: New evidence for burial in place. Geology, v.12, p.159-162.
Fritz, W.J., 1984. Comment and Reply on "Yellowstone fossil forests: New evidence for burial in place." Geology, v.12, p.638-639.
Yuretich, R.F., 1984. Comment and Reply on "Yellowstone fossil forests: New evidence for burial in place." Geology, v.12, p.639.
[Both authors agree there is plenty of sedimentological evidence Specimen Ridge examples are in place, and that *some* of the trees at *other* sections in the area might be transported.]
Fritz, 1984:
"In many places not cited by Yuretich, I have also interpreted the tall stumps on Specimen Ridge to be in place and have stated that the forests [besides Specimen Ridge] are best explained by _both_ in situ and transported wood (Fritz, 1980a, 1981a, 1981b, 1982, 1983; Fritz and Harrison, 1984). Furthermore, I have proposed ways to differentiate in situ from transported stumps (Fritz, 1981a, 1982, 1983; Fritz and Harrison, 1984); by all these criteria, the tall stumps on Specimen Ridge are in place."
[Some other locations may have transported stumps]
Yuretich, 1984:
"Fritz's Comment clears up any lingering misunderstandings that may have arisen as a result of the original publication about the Yellowstone fossil forests that triggered this series of exchanges (Fritz, 1980c). He has clearly stated elsewhere (Fritz, 1980a, 1982) that the Specimen Ridge trees are preserved in place, and I am glad this statement now appears in _Geology_."
"Many details of the facies relationships in the Lamar River Formation [the unit the Yellowstone fossil forests occur in] still must be studied, but I think we have at last gotten to the root of the forest problem, and no longer need to be stumped by the origin of these fossil trees."
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7. A New Model for Quicker Coal Formation.
Dr. Steven Austin wrote his doctoral dissertation at Penn State University on a new model for coal formation based on his study of a coal field in Kentucky. While geologists have used a peat swamp model to explain coal formation for over 100 years, Austin argued that explanation doesn’t fit because coal is coarsely textured like bark, not finely textured like swamp peat. Swamp peat contains root material; coal does not. Swamp peat rests on a layer of soil; coal often rests on a rock layer. No swamp peat has been found partly formed into coal.
Austin advanced a floating mat model--that a watery catastrophe stripped away millions of acres of forest and tangled them into mats. The mats floated on an ocean over Kentucky, bumping against one another and dropping their bark to the bottom. Subsequent volcanic activity provided heat and pressure, the final ingredients used in laboratories to produce coal. The result was rich seams of coal in Kentucky and a Ph.D. for Austin.
Just ten months later Mount St. Helens erupted, dumping vast amounts of vegetation into Spirit Lake including a million logs. Dr. Austin found the logs on the lake stripped of their bark. The bottom of the lake was strewn with up to three feet of bark mixed with other vegetation and sediment. To this day the material remains as merely slowly decaying vegetation. But if a catastrophe supplies the right amount of heat and pressure, the material will quickly change to coal. Dr. Austin’s research indicates that the idea of coal formation requiring millions of years is highly questionable.
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http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mtsthelens.html
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Coal Beds, Creationism, and Mount St. Helens
Copyright © 1996-1997 by Keith Littleton
[Last Update: June 15, 1996]
I failed to realize how much the facts concerning the volcanic eruption at Mt. St. Helens have been abused and misused by creationists until I read the series of articles on June 15, 1996 at http://www.pacificrim.net/~nuanda/origins/Origins.html [now defunct].
This web page contains many of the misinterpretations, misrepresentations, and factual distortions that creationists have concocted surrounding the eruption at Mt. St. Helens. The most striking aspect of these web pages is the total lack of any citations or references for the claims being made. An excellent example of such misinformation is the page concerning the formation of coal found at http://www.pacificrim.net/~nuanda/origins/CoalBeds.html [now defunct].
This page, titled Formation of Coal Beds, claims that according to the conventional theory of coal formation, coal forms by the accumulation of plant remains in swamps and the subsequent burial of this plant matter. It further states that the conventional theory claims the accumulation of peat in swamps is a slow process. So far, the information presented is correct.
At this point, this web erects a straw man by claiming that "geologists believe that it takes about a thousand years to form each inch of coal." This statement greatly exaggerates what geologists claim. Depending the type of swamp, the climate, and the accommodation space provided by sea level or base level rise, the rate at which peats accumulates would have varied greatly between individual coal seams. Moore (1922) documents much faster rates of coal accumulation than the thousand years an inch that the web page claims. Moore (1922) notes: In the valley of the Somme, 3 feet of peat has developed in 30 to 40 years, and a moor in Hanover 4 to 6 feet has grown in about 30 years. Near Lake Constance a layer 3 to 4 feet has required only 24 years while among the Danish mosses 10 feet required 250 to 300 years for its deposition. Allowing for the compaction of peat as it changes into coal, Moore (1922) calculates that for some bituminous coals, a foot of coal might require three hundred years to form and a seam 10 feet thick might require three thousands years to form. However, the rates at which any specific coal could accumulate would vary above and below this rate depending on the factors such as the vegetation, the type of swamp or marsh, the percentage of vegetable material oxidize before burial, the compressibility of the peat, and the space provided for the accumulation of peat by sea or other base level changes. Regardless, it has been shown that the rate at which coal forms could have greatly exceed an inch per thousand years (Moore 1922, Schopf 1973). Then the web page goes on to talk about Mt. St. Helens and its significance in understanding coal formation. It first states: In Spirit Lake, near Mt. St. Helens, floats an enormous tree mat, a layer of dead trees accumulated on the surface as a result of the devistating [sic] eruption. Due to the abrasive action of wind and waves, most of the tree bark is now water-saturated in sheets at the bottem [sic] of the lake. As a result a layer of peat several inches thick has accumulated. The uncited source of this and the information below it appears to be Austin (1986, p. iii) given the striking similarity in their wording and claims. The web page further claims that: The Spirit Lake peat resembles, both compositionally and texturally, certain coal beds of the easter [sic] US, which are also dominated by tree bark. There are indeed eastern (e.g., Pennsylvanian) coals dominated by bark. However, there the similarity ends as demonstrated by uncompressed plant material preserved in coal balls (DiMichele et al. 1986). First, studies of both coal balls and the enclosing coal clearly shows that woody tissue is either a dominant or major constituent of the coals of the eastern United States. In addition to woody material, significant amounts of herbaceous roots and foliage (leaves) comprise the eastern (Pennsylvanian) coals, unlike the woody material that has accumulated at the base of Spirit Lake (DiMichele et al. 1986). Finally, the coal balls studies show that the tree bark within the Pennsylvanian coal is of different origin, being derived from large lycopod trees rather modern hardwoods. The Lycopods consist of a soft, spongy interior surrounded by a relatively solid, woody outer cylinder. After a lycopod tree dies, the interior quickly decays, leaving the outer shell to collapse into the swamp and become incorporated into the peat where it later becomes coal. Thus, the outer shell of the lycopod is preferentially preserved. As a result, the eastern Pennsylvanian coals are rich in so-called bark. The presented intact root systems and paleosols clearly show that the overwhelming majority of eastern Pennsylvanian coals formed in place (DiMichele et al. 1986, Gardner et al. 1988, and Wnuk 1989).
The same stiff outer woody bark and inner soft spongy woody structure of the lycopods is one reason why Carboniferous polystrate trees (e.g., at Joggins, Nova Scotia) are casts, while the Mesozoic and Tertiary polystrate trees (i.e. at Yellowstone) are carbonized and silicified trunks. Austin and other creationists fail to explain how the Spirit Lakes trees turn into Joggins-type casts after burial. This is important because Gastaldo (1990) shows that the formation of these casts require the alternation of flooding and subaerial exposure to form. The presence of cross-bedded and laminated sediments within the casts precludes the formation of these casts as the result of continuos deposition (Gastaldo 1990).
The web page also makes these claims:
Claim no. 1: The accumulation of bark at the bottom of Spirit Lake, which is called peat, demonstrates that peat can accumulate fast.
The accumulation of a thin layer of shredded bark at Spirit Lake is irrelevant to how peat is formed, because coal is rarely associated with the highly fragmented, angular volcanic debris that characterizes the material at Spirit Lake. Rather, coal occurs interbedded with either nonvolcanic channel sandstones, freshwater limestones, shales, and paleosols of riverine origin or cyclic sequences of sandstones, shales and marine limestones identical to those that comprise modern deltas and coastal plains (Flores 1981, Donaldson et al. 1985). Finally, the base of many coals lies directly on top of well developed paleosols, often called seatearths, seatclays and fireclays, that would be absent from the base of the Spirit Lake peat (Gardner et al. 1988, Joeckel 1995). It is extremely clear that the shredded wood at the bottom of Spirit Lake accumulated in a vastly different environment than currently known coals.
Claim no. 2: Swamp peat rarely contains sheets of bark because tree roots disintegrate and homoginize [sic] the peat.
The absence of bark in many peats reflects the abundance of other components (i.e., wood, foliage, roots, and pollen) accumulating to form a peat. The composition of peats varies so much that it is incorrect to make such generalizations. Also, the coalification, process by which peat is transformed into coal, will homogenize and destroy the identity of the individual components. Initially, microorganisms degrade plant material. Then, chemical processes convert the lignin of the plants into humic substances and condense these humic substances into larger coal molecules. All of these coalification processes serve to homogenize the former peat (Meissner et al. 1977). The presence of in place tree roots that have grown into and homogenized the peat would demonstrate the peat accumulated in place and not transported from elsewhere as the shredded bark found at Spirit Lake. Trees and other plants could not grow in and put roots down into material that accumulates on the bottom of a lake or other water body, mush less rapidly deposited sediments. Thus, claiming that peat has been homogenized by tree roots contradicts the claim that the peat accumulated at the bottom of some body of water. In fact, where the original texture of peat is preserved in coal balls from Midwestern coals, in place roots are not only present, but have clearly failed to homogenize the peat.
Claim no. 3: Spirit Lake peat is texturally very similar to coal.
This is also a false statement. The shredded plant material at the bottom of Spirit Lake that is being called peat has little if any resemblance to the peat found in modern peat swamps such as those in Indonesia that are considered modern analogues of the eastern United States' Pennsylvanian coals. It has even less similarity to coal.
It can be questioned whether peat is even the proper term for the shredded wood and bark found at the bottom of Spirit Lake. From the descriptions that Austin (1986) and other creationists have given of this material, it sounds likes a relatively unaltered layer consisting of fragments of ground up wood and bark of varying sizes. Geologists call such woody debris "coffee grounds." Coffee grounds consists of wood and other plant debris that have been carried out of the mouth of the delta, rolled around and fragmented by waves for while, and deposited as sand- to pebble-sized chunks of sorted plant debris on the beach, back beach, or abandoned channel areas. This material is called "coffee grounds" because of its visual similarity to coffee (black or brown little bits of wood). In ancient deltas, coffee grounds have accumulated within abandoned deltaic channels to form high-quality, but very thin, coals (Coleman 1982, p. 39). However, these coals, like the coffee grounds of the modern Mississippi Delta, lack the lateral continuity, paleosols, and presence of recognizable foliage or root material that characterize the widespread Pennsylvanian coal seams (DiMichele et al. 1986, Gardner et al. 1988, Wnuk 1989).
Claim no. 4: Only burial and slight heating is required to transform the Spirit Lake peat to coal.
This is another false claim that burial and slight heating will convert the coffee grounds that they call peat into coal. The conversion of this material takes considerable burial and time to convert to the quality of coal found in Pennsylvania. In the case of anthracite, very intense tectonic metamorphism is also needed for the conversion of this material into coal.
Conclusions
The web page that I examined contains a number of claims about the significance of the "coffee grounds" found at the bottom of Spirit Lake relative to the formation of Pennsylvanian coals in the eastern United States. It can be concluded that Spirit Lake lacks very little instructive value in explaining how coal is formed. There are some transported coals, however they are very rare and can be better understood by looking the coffee grounds that accumulate within the modern Mississippi Delta. The web page examined here is nothing more than a bunch of creationist text-bites designed to sound good despite lacking any scientific value.
Final Notes
1. While reading Austin (1986), I found a remarkable coincidence of text and ideas between it and the coal beds HTML page. For example, Austin (1986) states: The peat layer in Spirit Lake, however, demonstrates that peat can accumulate rapidly. Swamp peats, however, have only very rare bark sheet material because the intrusive action of tree roots disintegrates and homogenizes the peat. The Spirit Lake peat, in contrast, is texturally very similar to coal. All that is needed is burial and slight heating to transform the Spirit Lake peat into coal. Thus, at Spirit Lake, we may have seen the first stage in the formation of coal. and the web page states: This development demonstrates that peat can accumulate rapidly. Swamp peat rarely contains bark sheet material because the roots of trees disintegrate and homoginize the peat. In contrast, the Spirit Lake peat is texturally very similar to coal. coal. All that is required to transform the Spirit lake peat to coal now is burial and slight heating. 2. Coal balls are concretions composed of either calcite, siderite, or some other carbonate mineral that formed within peat prior to the peat being compacted and coalified. As a result, the minerals that comprise a coal ball infill the cellular structure of and surround the plant remains comprising the peat within it. Thus, well-preserved and identifiable remains of the plant material comprising the peat can recovered from these the coal balls.
3. Information about polystrate tree fossils can be found at:References Cited
Austin, Steven A. (1986) Impact No. 157 - Mount St. Helens and Catastrophism. Institute for Creation Research, El Cajon, California, 4 pp.
Coleman, J. M. (1982) Deltas Processes of Deposition and Models for Exploration. International Human Resources Development Corporation, Boston, 124 pp.
Flores, Romero M. (1981) Coal deposition in fluvial paleoenvironments of the Paleocene Tongue River Member of the Fort Union Formation, Powder River Basin, Wyoming and Montana In. Recent and Ancient Nonmarine Depositional Environments: Models for Exploration, F. G. Ethridge and R. M. Flores (editors), pp. 169-190, SEPM Special Publication no. 31, Society for Sedimentary Geology, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 349 pp.
Donaldson, A. C., Renton, J. J., and Presley, M. W., (1985) Pennsylvania deposystems and paleoclimates of the Appalachians. International Journal of Coal Geology, vol. 5, pp. 167-175.
DiMichele, W. A., Phillips, T. l., and Willard, D. A. (1986) Morphology and Paleoecology of Pennsylvanian-age coal-swamp plants. In Land Plants Notes for a Short Course, R. A. Gastaldo (editor), pp. 97-144, University of Tennessee Department of Geology Studies in Geology, no. 15, Knoxville, Tennessee, 226 pp.
Gastaldo, R. A. (1990) Early Pennsylvanian Swamp Forests in the Mary Lee Coal Zone, Warrior Basin, Alabama. In. Carboniferous Coastal Environments and Paleocommunities of the Mary Lee Coal Zone, Marion and Walker Counties, Alabama, R. A. Gastaldo, T. M. Demko, and Y. Liu (editors), Guidebook for Field Trip VI, Alabama Geological Survey, Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
Gardner, T. W., Williams, E. G., and Holbrook, P. W. (1988) Pedogenesis of some Pennsylvanian underclays; ground-water, topography, and tectonic controls. In Paleosols and Weathering Through Geologic Time: principles and Applications, J. Reinhardt and W. R. Sigleo (editors), Geological Society of America Special Paper no. 216, pp. 81-102.
Joeckel, R. N. (1995) Paleosols below the Ames marine unit (Upper Pennsylvanian, Conemaugh Group) in the Appalachian Basin, U.S.A.: variability on an ancient depositional landscape. Journal of Sedimentary Research, vol. A65, no. 2, pp. 393-407.
Meissner, C. R., Cecil, C. B., and Stricker, G. D. (1977) Coal Geology and the Future. U. S. Geological Survey, Reston, Virginia.
Moore, E. S. (1922) Coal Its Properties, Analysis, Classification, Geology, Extraction, Uses and Distribution. John Wiley and Sons, Inc. New York.
Shopf, J. M. (1973) Coal, Climate and Global Tectonics. In Implications of Continental Drift to the Earth Sciences, Volume 1, D. H. Tarling and S. K. Runcorn (editors), Academic Press, New York, pp. 609-622.
Wnuk, C., (1989) Ontogeny and Paleoecology of the Middle Pennsylvanian Arborescent Lycopod Bothrodendron Punctatum, Bothrodendraceae (Western Middle Anthracite Field, Smamokin Quadrangle, Pennsylvania. American Journal of Botany, vol. 76, no. 7, pp. 966-980.
Prepared June 15, 1996
P.S. Again I thank an anonymous geologist for the invaluable comments and references given me.
It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three benefits: freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to use either.
-- Mark Twain
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Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door Argusx
Het is hierdoor trouwens dat het vormen van massa's fosielen veel beter te verklaren is door een wereldwijde katastrofe als de zondvloed .
Het beste bewijs hiervoor zijn gefossiliseerde bomen die verschillende aardlagen doorkruisen. Dit kan alleen als de bomen in korte tijd zijn bedekt door lagen van materiaal .
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/rapid-formation-coal.htm |
Helaas...
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-gc.html
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) Poly-strata fossils.
By this, Dr. Hovind means fossils which cross several strata. Usually that means fossilized, vertical tree trunks. Creationists are attacking a straw man. No geologist claims that every little stratum requires thousands of years to be laid down! The strata associated with polystrate fossils invariably show evidence of relatively rapid deposition. 'Polystrate' trees show every sign of extremely rapid burial, generally when rivers flood over their banks.
(Eldredge, 1982, p.105)
An example of this very thing is given by Dunbar and Waage (Dunbar & Waage, 1969, p.52). They show a photo of the Yahtse River area in Alaska, which depicts a number of upright, broken-off stumps stripped of most of their branches. The taller stumps poke out above the alluvial mud. This is the result of natural processes accompanying river course change. A couple of pages later we find a photograph showing how trees can be buried fairly quickly in another way. In this case, volcanic ash has partially buried a forest whose trees are mostly reduced to broken-off stumps stripped of their branches. Continuing volcanic eruptions over a period of years (dead trees last a long time!) and the interaction with wind would create variations in the strata which finally bury the stumps.
In some cases, burial might well be less than instantaneous. In the San Francisco area fossils of cedar and redwood (dated at 23,000 years) are found in place 20 feet below present sea level. This may be due to a rising sea level from melting ice-caps. (Encyclopedia Americana, 1978 Annual [Geology].) A similar find exists off the coast of Japan where remnants of a forest of willows and alders are found in 70 feet of water. They are some 10,000 years old (Chorlton, 1984, p.90).
Thus, we have polystrate fossils in the making, without the aid of Noah's flood.
As to the 80-foot whale, standing on its tail, which was found by the GREFCO Corporation near Lompoc, that being an outstanding example of a polystrate fossil, you may rest assured that geologists do not assume that it remained on its tail until slowly buried by diatoms! More likely it died a natural death, sank to the bottom for a time, and was buried in some kind of underwater avalanche which left it in its vertical position. Here's what a Christian geologist had to say: Before the discovery of rapid, submarine sediment flows the circumstances under which these animals were buried was very much a mystery...
...it is logical to conclude that the Lompoc diatom beds were deposited naturally on the ocean floor, and that sometime before the period of tectonic activity which finally raised them to an elevation above sea level the earthquakes in that area triggered at least one large sediment slide and flow which overwhelmed and buried the animals that were down-slope from where the slide began. As pointed out in the early parts of this section on rapid burial, we now know of large sediment flows in various parts of the world which apparently had all of the characteristics necessary for overwhelming and burying both swift and large marine animals.
(Wonderly, 1987, pages 56,58)
Thus, the mystery of Lompoc poses no problems for standard-brand geology. However, we can do even better. Thanks to that modern wonder of wonders, the Internet, a complete accounting of the Lompoc whale mystery is only keystrokes away! Darby South has thoroughly researched all the details at <http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/whale.html>, a web page devoted to just that subject. His material comes directly from those folks at the Los Angeles Museum of Natural History who were involved in the excavation.
The original source of our story appears to be K. M. Russel, who wrote an article in Chemical and Engineering News (Oct. 4, 1976). Some "facts" were wrong from the start. To begin with, the whale fossil was not buried vertically. The angle was more like 40-50 degrees from the horizonal. Most importantly, the skeleton lay parallel to the bedding plane, meaning that the site was, more or less, once a level sea floor. The discovery of hardground‡ horizons within this strata make it clear that for long periods of time this was, indeed, the ocean floor and not a quick load of sediment from Noah's flood. The fossil was buried by the same kind of diatomites that accumulated in deep bays and basins along the Pacific Coast during Miocene times. These sediments lack any sedimentary structures that would indicate catastrophic deposition. Rather, the strata exhibit laminations indicative of slow accumulation on an anoxic bay bottom.
(Darby South, Internet)
Indeed, a partially buried, fully connected (articulated) whale skeleton is slowly being buried even now off the California coast! It was discovered about 10 years ago by a deep-sea submersible.
Plate tectonics wrote the final chapter. As the Transverse Ranges were being folded and pushed up, the sea floor on which our whale had settled and, in time, had been buried, was now subject to folding. As a result, that whale skeleton became tilted along with the strata on which it lay. Now that we have the real facts, we can see that this whale fossil is actually a good reason for rejecting Noah's flood as the source of the geologic column! Funny, how creationists often shoot themselves in the foot while trying to attack conventional geology!
In order to collect the point, creationists must show that polystrate fossils exist where they shouldn't be. That involves a lot more work than conjuring up interesting pictures and local stories accompanied by much speculation.
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Citaat:
Oorspronkelijk geplaatst door lamenielachen
politiek België lijkt meer op een inktvis met veel grabbelende armen in de staatskas en inkt spuitend omdat niemand het zou zien.
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Stephen F. Roberts: "...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
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10 september 2006, 12:21
